Outright, blatant copies, and the strong opinions regarding them.

[BluegrassGuy]

The way I see it profiting off of someone else's design without their consent is theft whether it holds up in court is not relevant to me, it's the principle. I don't think CR or RH loose sales because of these copies, that doesn't make it OK.

I can't afford these 500 dollar knives so I don't buy them, I buy something else I can afford. I really don't understand why someone would buy a copy unless they want to deceive themselves or others into thinking they have a real one. Why not just buy an original design from someone else that you can afford, getting most likely a better knife than the copy.

So in my eyes while these knives don't affect sales of the real thing, what they do is affect the sales of original designs in the same price ramge.

 

[pap11y]

People around here seem to get very heated when discussing imitations of high-end knives.
Why?

It seems to be stated quite often that it is theft. It's design theft, certainly, but do they really detract from the market those knives are aimed at? Surely, someone in the market for a $800 Chris Reeve knife is not going to buy a knockoff of dubious quality instead. Are the producers of high-end knives actually losing money over this? If so: is that documented fact or is it speculation?

Would it still be an issue if they didn't have the names attached? For example, if the fake CRKs and Hinderers had the actual manufacturer's names - or is the overall design of the knife still a large enough factor?

Note that I am not supporting or defending anything.
Let's discuss this like adults, not like zealots or fanboys.

Here we go again.

To put this in context read this guys post a couple of days ago http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1037297-Aliexpress-and-fake-replica-Sebenzas-Hinderers-Experiences-Recommendations

Of note are the terms:

- Don't bother telling me to "just get the real thing," because I'm not interested in the real thing.
- There are quite a few knives imitating CRK and Hinderer designs kicking around on "said website"....I was wondering if anyone has had experience with such knives, or, even better, if anyone has recommendations.

It was raised that he was asking for recommendations on buying fakes and the thread was closed..

So he starts this thread with this statement "People around here seem to get very heated when discussing imitations of high-end knives. Why?"

"Let's discuss this like adults."

If you support someone who is making money from someone else's hard work, it is not honorable and harmful to all knife makers. I can't explain it in any more adult terms than that...

"It seems to be stated quite often that it is theft. It's design theft, certainly, but do they really detract from the market those knives are aimed at?"

When the knock off copies start being sold as the real thing people lose confidence in buying that product or have an inferior product for a lot more money. It harms the reputation of the business and hurts the poor guy trying to buy the knife they actually wanted instead of the fake they ended up with..

"Are the producers of high-end knives actually losing money over this? If so: is that documented fact or is it speculation?"

Falkniven are offering a $10,000 reward for information leading to locating the factory where the imitations are made - FACT

I think that demonstrates that it is harming their business and they want it stopped...

I don't really think this can be explained any clearer... sigh...

 

[Jaytaylor]

People around here seem to get very heated when discussing imitations of high-end knives.
Why?

It seems to be stated quite often that it is theft. It's design theft, certainly, but do they really detract from the market those knives are aimed at? Surely, someone in the market for a $800 Chris Reeve knife is not going to buy a knockoff of dubious quality instead. Are the producers of high-end knives actually losing money over this? If so: is that documented fact or is it speculation?

Would it still be an issue if they didn't have the names attached? For example, if the fake CRKs and Hinderers had the actual manufacturer's names - or is the overall design of the knife still a large enough factor?

Note that I am not supporting or defending anything.
Let's discuss this like adults, not like zealots or fanboys.

Trolling...tut tut.

 

[cncpro11]

After reading the above, from pap11, I really really hope this thread gets moved to W&C so I can give OP the not so adult version of my last comment.

 

[De Plano]

Not worth joining this conversation, sorry I bumped it

 

[9blades]

Oh...

Just saying lol

 

[9blades]

But I will agree some of the people in the nutn_***** thread.........not good.

 

[dkb45]

I love how when a controversial topic come up, people quickly devolve to poop flinging monkies. If you have to resort to name calling, either the person you are arguing with is not worth your time, or your argument sucks. Soapbox over.

I like the knockoffs because they give a cheaper way to have the high end designs. I strongly dislike the counterfeit being made using the original name and branding (you make a good product, claim it you idiot!), I do love the general trend of killer quality for the price. It shows that China is not just producing knockoffs at 1/100 the quality, they can get to and past 2/3 the quality. My fake Umnumzaan has a better f&f than half of my knives, those of which range from $10-$200, US China Japan and Taiwan made. Tell me that isn't a statement.

 

[LMT66]

I love how when a controversial topic come up, people quickly devolve to poop flinging monkies. If you have to resort to name calling, either the person you are arguing with is not worth your time, or your argument sucks. Soapbox over.

I like the knockoffs because they give a cheaper way to have the high end designs. I strongly dislike the counterfeit being made using the original name and branding (you make a good product, claim it you idiot!), I do love the general trend of killer quality for the price. It shows that China is not just producing knockoffs at 1/100 the quality, they can get to and past 2/3 the quality. My fake Umnumzaan has a better f&f than half of my knives, those of which range from $10-$200, US China Japan and Taiwan made. Tell me that isn't a statement.

Would you mind if your employer terminated you and the work you once did for them was then farmed out to China because it costs less?

 

[tirod3]

Ah, this is going the way of poop flinging monkeys, too.

First, the concept of intellectual property is defined and exclusively protected by patents, and copyrights, which Customs is too overwhelmed to enforce at the petty pocketknife level. After that, aggrieved individuals may resort to lawsuits, and if they get anywhere, money trades hands. But the popular notions of what constitutes theft are really overblown. The critical point to prove actual damages - not speculative opinion. Somebody has to get hurt, physically or financially, and authoritative numbers spelled out.

Here, it's a posturing tactic, the one calling it out is on higher moral ground, and that makes them superior to the low lifes who buy the stuff. The hypocrisy is that they don't follow their own creed to any degree at all, and buy "homage" watches, wear shoes made to look similar, and buy jeans with the exact same fashion cues as all the others. Most of what we buy is a copy of something else. Even breakfast.

While wearing a knock off watch with copy cat clothes, they pound their online chest and thump about how a reputable maker is getting ripped off. That makes them another thief - they aren't the law, they aren't your God, and they sure aren't your Mom. They are trying to take your right to decide the issue and substitute it with blind obedience to their ethical standards.

It's mostly monkey dancing to force others to their way of thinking. If IP was really the issue, then there would be a lot more research and introspective thought about only buying the original designers work - no matter how many centuries ago that was . . . but, that's not happening. No topics on that, is there?

Sheer hypocrisy being used for social posturing under the influence of testosterone. As long as juveniles are allowed to post, there will be no adult discussion. It's not necessary anyway, the adults discuss it in front of a judge - not here.

We return you now to your regularly scheduled poop flinging. Enjoy your visit to the zoo.

 

[Bigfattyt]

A

Right? I lost a lot of respect for this community after I read about five posts into the "Nutnfancy" topic. Good lord. It's not so much a discussion as it is a lynching.

That is because NF has a history of being a douche, and people don't respect his opinion.







To the OP's question, the fake Hinderers do dilute the brand that Hinderer worked so hard to build. People will buy the copies. People will have issues with them. People WILL try and send them back to Hinderer for service, or warranty work!

Unwary buyers will pay too much when those without scruples try and pass them off as the real deal. A person who decides he wants a Hinderer (or CR) might not have the experience to tell the fakes from the real deal. He will be disapointed with he workmanship. Will come on here and complain, and badmouth, and do damage to the reputation of the actual manufacturer.

Clothing and fashion are a different area of IP law. The US Supreme court decided, long ago, that clothes, scarfs, hats, etc, etc did not warrant protection from copying. Brand Names are a completely different story! They can make pants that look just like your brand, but they cannot put your name or logo on them.

Even if knives were fashion, the fakers are doing just that. They are using the makers Name and Logos.


As to lawsuits. IP law is interesting. Unlike injury law, in many IP cases, you don't necessarily have to prove lost sales etc. You can win even if the infringe could prove their product would never overlap with yours, or be sold in the same market.

 

[Nafunu]

Wow, talk about timing; I purchased a fake Small Sebenza last year, and just finished a "review" of it the other day:

http://urbanedc.net/reviews/mystery-knife-review/


To summarize my review, the knife itself is an incredible copy, and, apart from the design on the handle scales, is nearly indistinguishable from a real Small Sebenza all the way down to the hardware components. To be clear, I'm a huge Chris Reeve fan; I've purchased, owned, and sold over a dozen of his knives over the years; I currently have six CRK knives, and I will continue to buy CRK knives in the future. I purchased this fake Sebenza entirely out of curiosity, and I do not intend to buy other fakes. In the end, this fake knife bothers me, and I'm not sure what to even do with it now. At the same time, the fact that someone is able to make such an exact duplicate is interesting to me from a technical standpoint. However, from an ethical standpoint, I personally can't support the manufacturers that are making these copies*, but I also don't see any practical way to stop them. I think there's always going to be a market for copies or fakes, and I think this market will grow in the future.

Anyway, off to go find this nutnfancy thread everyone is talking about.



* Yes, I realize that I have indirectly supported them by purchasing this knife, even second-hand. I couldn't help myself, curiosity overwhelmed me and I had to buy this knife and see for myself how close to the real thing it was.

 

[Ken44]

Why start this thread???

Did you not get enough opinions in the other thread???

Same people, same forum. Just go read the other thread.

 

[devgru66]

Some knucklehead posts a YT video blatantly advocating and supporting theft, and it is this community you have no respect for?
If thats your position than the feeling is mutual.
When Esav closed your thread, he posted a copy of the rules directly related to your thread.
The first five posts were supporting forum rules as well as honor and integrity, so if you've lost respect for the members and the rules of this forum, then perhaps you are in the wrong place and should log out and not come back.

+1

I find the defense of the mall ninja "light colonel" pretty comical.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Ah, this is going the way of poop flinging monkeys, too.

First, the concept of intellectual property is defined and exclusively protected by patents, and copyrights, which Customs is too overwhelmed to enforce at the petty pocketknife level.

They are not too busy to enforce it at the hand bag, watch, CD, and jeans level.

After that, aggrieved individuals may resort to lawsuits, and if they get anywhere, money trades hands.

The law is primarily to protect consumers, who have too little at stake to resort to "law."

But the popular notions of what constitutes theft are really overblown.

Yup. "Theft" (AKA "larceny/robbery) are criminal law concepts. Selling counterfeit goods, however, is a crime. 18 USC § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services

(A) if an individual, shall be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000; and
(B) for a second or subsequent offense under subsection (a), if an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $15,000,000.

The critical point to prove actual damages - not speculative opinion. Somebody has to get hurt, physically or financially, and authoritative numbers spelled out.

True for a civil suit for infringement but not true in a criminal proceeding for trafficking in counterfeit goods.

Here, it's a posturing tactic, the one calling it out is on higher moral ground, and that makes them superior to the low lifes who buy the stuff. The hypocrisy is that they don't follow their own creed to any degree at all, and buy "homage" watches, wear shoes made to look similar, and buy jeans with the exact same fashion cues as all the others. Most of what we buy is a copy of something else. Even breakfast. While wearing a knock off watch with copy cat clothes, they pound their online chest and thump about how a reputable maker is getting ripped off. That makes them another thief - they aren't the law, they aren't your God, and they sure aren't your Mom. They are trying to take your right to decide the issue and substitute it with blind obedience to their ethical standards.

I have never knowingly purchased a counterfeit item. You have fallen into the "Everyone cheats" fallacy of ad hominem attack. Further, you seem adverse to any expression of opinion on a legal/ethical issue of interest to people here - other than your opinion, of course.

It's mostly monkey dancing to force others to their way of thinking. If IP was really the issue, then there would be a lot more research and introspective thought about only buying the original designers work - no matter how many centuries ago that was . . . but, that's not happening. No topics on that, is there?

The issue is current counterfeits, including use of a copyrighted brand, not who first invented the folding knife. In fact, there have been numerous threads on the topic of whether it is "wrong" to sell a knife that "looks like" another maker's product. Some have led to lengthy discussions of when a given feature appeared and in whose work. These are slipprier issues than that presented here - frank counterfeiting.

Sheer hypocrisy being used for social posturing under the influence of testosterone. As long as juveniles are allowed to post, there will be no adult discussion. It's not necessary anyway, the adults discuss it in front of a judge - not here.

We return you now to your regularly scheduled poop flinging. Enjoy your visit to the zoo.

Name-calling hardly elevates your argument.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

A. I don't trust companies with questionable business ethics to advertise the materials they are using honestly. B. I would rather pay for original designs in a similar price range to encourage companies to put out more original designs. I don't want to see a market flooded with a thousand Hinderer clones with minor variations and nothing innovative available.

 

[Mal2]

I think this a good and valid discussion worthy of as many threads as generate interest. I personally think the distinction between copy which is obviously questionable and fake (counterfeit) which is illegal many places and wrong everywhere, is the brand. Unless the design has a valid patent, it's too difficult to distinguish otherwise. Save for the name, the top mfrs must rely on known quality, materials, fit and finish, warranty etc in order to command the prices they do and it's obvious thievery to attempt to profit on what they have built by using their brand. If you try to go beyond the brand and/or a valid patent, where do you stop? Frame lock, handle material, steel, sharp point.......finding the line is difficult; defining it, impossible. Other than the brand/patent everybody will make their own decision. They should be helped in this decision when it comes to blatant counterfeits identified as such by the original makers brand.

The politics and economics of why the Chinese can build stuff with nearly the same quality and ship it half way around the world and still undercut American mfrs is another valid subject for another thread.

 

[GronK]

Try looking at this from different points of view. First, you just designed the ultimate widget and proudly put your name on it. Next widget show there's a batch of cheap copies with your name on it. How do you feel? Second, you sweat and save to afford your holy grail knife. You're close to having enough and you see a deal on one you can't pass up, less than you've seen one before but well above known copies. You pull the trigger and find that, whether known or not known to the seller you've bought a fake.