Paddling into 2013

No wonder why fear of the outdoors is a feature of most websites dominated by Nth Americans. :thumbdn:
Perhaps the survival-oriented sites. You're apparently not familiar with those geared toward outdoor sports and recreation, which many people's lives practically revolve around. The fear is mostly limited to those who don't spend time outdoors, and for whom it is an unknown, and therefore hostile, environment. I don't have time to participate on all of them, but I browse forums dedicated to hiking/camping/backpacking, climbing, caving, canyoneering, mountain biking, and kayaking. I even read about bushcrafting, hunting, and fishing some, though they aren't passions of mine. The common theme isn't fear; it's enthusiasm.
It's pretty obvious that the members posting in this thread have all made investments of time, money, and effort to further our enjoyment of the outdoors, too, since it's about our shared love of getting out on the water, which requires all of those things.
Would you like to hear my perception of Australians based on a limited number of posts I've read on this forum?;)
 
I've watched an interesting phenomena occur in canoeing. In the sixties, kids dabbled in canoeing as a result of scouting and summer camps mostly located on area lakes. More people were living in rural areas then as well. Canoeing really didn't gain popularity as a recreational pursuit until the mid seventies or so. In part this was because of an iconic movie featuring canoeing which came out at that time. As interest in the sport increased, so did innovation in canoe design and materials. Quite a few new canoe manufacturers sprang up then. And people moved from the rural areas to cities and suburbs. For both education and work. Still, popularity of canoeing grew. Canoe rentals began to appear on or near popular streams and rivers. Enthusiasts banded together into clubs to promote knowledge and safety.

Naturally a large number of young folk with little or no experience or knowledge were attracted to this fun thing to do, many without regard to the dangers involved. This is what is shown in that heavily edited film clip. The people who went downstream without incident would be boreing. And yes, everyman has a camera of some sort it seems and many post their photos and videos online. What you see depends on where you look.

I have friends in one of the nation's premier canoe clubs and they post "Gopro" helmet cam videos of some of their trips, recreational touring and whitewater. As well as some of the logistics and camping aspects. They give classes year round on safety and technique at an indoor college swimming pool. And they teach clinics on whitewater paddling, touring and whitewater rescue. They share information on popular streams and rivers including current conditions, access and hazards. They do a near constant process of river and roadside cleanup. They participate in the making of state laws and regulations regarding boater issues. In short, they take their outdoor recreation quite seriously and without "fear". Some of them, like myself, have more than fifty years of experience in canoes and other outdoor recreation.
 
Mick,
I believe our census is closing on 300 million Americans. Do you really feel qualified to lump us all in the same boat?

Bill
 
Don't sweat it guys. It is just his posting style.

Anyone here remember these?

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First seen in the mid 1970's, Coleman introduced it's "Ram-X" line of thermoformed polyethelyne canoes. They overcame the flexibility of the PE material by using an aluminum keelson and multiple vertical support struts from the seats and thwarts, and an extruded aluminum gunnel system. They were quite attractive as entry level canoes because of their durability and low initial cost. Old Town was then selling 5,000 canoes a year--a healthy number, but one-quarter of the production of Coleman, which dominated the low-end market. Old Town began to regain shares with the introduction of their entry level "Discovery" lines in 1985 and by 1989 were producing more than 22,000 canoes a year, accounting for one-quarter of industry sales. Old Town still produces this entry level line today and Coleman Marine is now Pelican Industries, also still producing a variant of the old Ram-X canoes.

I bought mine from a sporting goods store in Southwest Little Rock, Arkansas in circa 1976-77. I had been paddling since the early '60's, but had never owned a new canoe, always renting or buying someone else's used canoe. Two colors and two sizes were available, 15' and 17', green or "Colorado Red". I paid less than $300 for it including a matching pair of Coleman branded paddles, then loaded the floppy red 17' hull on top of my '75 Honda Civic for the 25 mile drive home. You see, they came as an unassembled "kit". The unrenforced hull nearly touched the ground front and rear when I strapped it onto the car with a long box of parts and two paddles protruding from the rear hatch. I built it in my garage over a few hours with a few basic hand tools and an included assembly manual.

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In 1985, Coleman Marine decided to introduce a new model. The 16' 2" Gold Medalist with better hull design in black PE and a price of $450.00. These are seldom seen today so sales must have been sparse. They made an appearance in a canoe review in the December, 1985 edition of Popular Mechanics magazine.

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Another model was introduced called the "Scanoe", a square stern version with a transom motor mount. I've only ever seen this model in green. Note the triple keelsons.

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I've not yet found a history of the Coleman canoes online, and seldom recall having seen them mentioned in canoeing magazines before the interenet. Most of the paddling community seems to have, and still does, consider them the red-headed stepchild of the canoe world. The design is slow and wide in beam, a deep keel required to bed the stiffening keelson. Still they oil can, the bottom flexing. Another negative was the upward bowed aluminim tube thwarts which extended above the gunnel height making it near impossible to slide onto a rack from front or rear, and scratching car roofs when loading it on foam blocks. The bow and stern were low and low volume which meant plunging deep in a wave or swell and shipping more water than hull designs with rising, more full volumed ends. In the interest of initial stability, the hull was exceedingly wide in the center. This was good in that it increased displacement adding to the carrying capacity, but bad in added drag on non-moving water. And coupled with the keelson, added effort in maneuvering. Over time, I came up with my own style of paddling which for the most part overcame some of these negatives. It forced me to learn to read the currents sooner and better and set up for manuvering before I reached tight, tricky spots. In a way, it was like driving a UPS truck.

I never wrapped my Coleman, but I did bend a gunnel once broaching on a tree. It was easily pressed back out true. I took it into some heavy Arkansas whitewater, places I had previously gone in a Bluehole Sunburst, where it got rammed into and dragged over sharp rocks, launched down the highway from my Honda once in an emergency stop, stored out in the weather for years on end and it never suffered a puncture or other damage other than a few battle scars. After ten years, it did develop a hull crack below one of the thwart mounts at the gunnel. I drilled a round hole at the bottom of the crack, then used a soldering iron to weld in a filling made from a sliver of matching plastic cut from the seat bottom. It never got worse or opened back up. I sold that canoe in 1994 when I moved out of state for my original purchase price.

The earliest ones, such as I owned 1976-1994, had bare aluminum gunnels and a day on the water left a distinct dark gray aluminm oxide on one's hands. At some point this was overcome with the use of black polyethelyne covers over the metal gunnels, pretty much industry standard now. They also had cast aluminum bow and stern caps and plastic sheet decks ending in aluminum channel stock to improve stiffness and provide a hand hold for carrying. Together with plastic sheet bulkheads, they enclosed formed styrofoam end blocks for floatation. This configuation went through a series of changes over the years with the multiple components being replaced first with a single molded plastic end cap and deck, then with a plastic end piece with molded in hand grip, floatation being then provided by hollow molded seats replacing the original molded bench seats secured to aluminum frames attached to the gunnels.

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With the takeover by Pelican Industries, several changes were made including replacing all thwarts and seats with hollow molded seats with pedestals to stiffen the bottom as opposed to the vertical aluminum tubes previously used. The increased air volume in the seats did improve floatation when swamped. And these canoes are seen in one variant or another at nearly every big box sporting goods store today, still cheap. In fact, adjusted for inflation, cheaper than the originals were back in the day. While I don't care for them myself, they are still today the ubiquitous entry level canoe.

The closest models offered by competetors are still several hundred dollars more in MSRP (and often found at the same big box stores). The competetors too have gone to the rotomolded hollow plastic seats. My newer canoes, Old Town Discoverys, both came with those and I have replaced them with ash framed and cane webbed traditional seats. If you are tempted to do this, be aware that you will be giving up a portion of the built in floatation.

I am still watching for a first-style Coleman 17 footer in good condition near me for nostalgia and as a loaner. They come up for sale quite often, but usually too far away for me to consider going after them or having them shipped. Common prices I've seen are usually sub-$500. About 1/3rd to 1/4 of what it takes to get into an upper level canoe these days. I have paddled some upper end canoes such as the Bell Wildfire (now called "Yellowstone", MSRP $1900), but the boney waters I frequent for the most part are flowing and I don't have to portage, so much of the finer points of upper end canoes are lost on me. Not that I would turn one down as a gift, mind you.
 
I realized I did not answer the original question.

I basically need everything. I need dry bags, or gear barrels. I need to put some kneeling pads in mine. I don't think I want to mount a saddle. At least not a permanent one.

I need to order another thwart so I can move the one that keeps me from reversing the canoe to paddle backwards! I am really not sure why the company put the thwart right there on my canoe.

I would also like to get some air bags. I need cold weather paddling gear. I have never seen a dry suit in my fat size!
 
I moved the thwart in my Old Town 169 when I replaced the seats. And I added a second center thwart for strength. After a bit of research, I ordered the thwarts, seats and seat drops with hardeware online from a maker in New York State which hires people with disabilities. The parts are OEM quality and I was so pleased that I ordered a Quick-N-Easy roof rack and ash rack bars for the Falcon from them. You can buy their products from REI or about any outdoor supplier, or you can buy them direct as I did. They will cut them to length for you or you can order them long and cut them yourself as I did.

http://www.essexindustries.org/

I've seen saddles attached with straps and grommet pads before so that they were removable. You might try sitting on one for a bit before you invest. When I was young it was no problem for me, but my knees don't bend at that angle anymore. And without foot braces and thigh straps, there is not a lot of gain over a lowered seat or kneeling thwart. IMHO, the biggest plus of a saddle system is that you stay locked into the boat during a roll. Do you intend to roll your canoe? Don't forget elbow pads and a good full face helmet if that is the case. A friend in Arkansas just got her nose reconstructed after meeting a rock on a roll this past spring. At my age, I've decided that if things get that dicey, I would just as soon not be attached to the hull. Consider a class V PFD as well for Class III-IV water.

I bought adhesive backed kneeling pads for my canoe but haven't installed them yet. I do often go to my knees when going over a drop, but that is not that often and of short duration. I feel like the pads would just be in the way the rest of the time. Perhaps I would be better off with knee pads attached to my knees instead of the hull. Some people use a closed cell mat instead. The mat just doesn't lock you into position the way glued in pads do.

When searching for floatation bags, I found two main types, vinyl and nylon. I work with vinyl so I am familiar with it's properties. It is bad to stretch, shrink and get torn. Remembering the number of times I've ducked under tree limbs or grazed sweepers, I opted for the nylon. I found four colors available, and not always in a choice of materials. Yellow, red, purple and silver/gray. I bought red end bags to "match" my canoe, but now can't find a matching center bag. Lacing them in is a fun project. I watched several videos such as the one by Mile Yee, famous in whitewater circles for his paddling skills and outfitting skills.

http://www.mikeyeeoutfitting.com/demo/demo.htm

I wound up using a variation on his system. It makes it easy to remove the bags and lacing for storage when I don't need the extra floatation. It is just a PITA to have to rethread the paracord through the holes in the gunnels each time I do want to use them. I may add the small footman loops that some systems use. The main center strap uses only one glue-on D-ring pad per bag for the end bags. It also acts as an anchor point for the two longitudinal paracord lines.

I recently read an online discussion regarding the drysuits. Yes, you can find one your size. But you might also consider going two piece, a dry top and dry pants. Sure, they can leak in a swim, but so can a full suit. There is a technique for rolling the top and bottom together that keeps out most of the water. Wet suits are not a good solution. I have a wetsuit and wouldn't consider it for paddling. It will restrict movement and wear you out fighting the neoprene. And it isn't warm until it is wet inside. Drysuits aren't warm either but allow room for a warm base layer inside.

At this point, I make do with cold weather paddling gloves and fleece. And spare dry clothes in a drybag. Poagies are popular in the place of gloves for yakkers, but I've never seen a way to use them on canoe paddles where you have to switch grips often. My current philosophy during cold weather is don't get wet. And be prepared to get dry quickly if I do.

ETA: OS Systems custom makes drysuits to fit.
http://www.ossystems.com/
 
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G'day OwenM

....The fear is mostly limited to those who don't spend time outdoors, and for whom it is an unknown, and therefore hostile, environment.....

Now you wouldn't be including those who occasionaly venture "OUTDOORS" along marked trails, or go camping by driving to their camp sites that already have established fire rings, or better yet have tables & benches with mobile phone reception? IMO they are camping / hiking not surviving.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this subforum about "Outdoor gear, Survival Equipment and more"?

Maybe our misunderstanding is based on a difference of what we both consider as wilderness. :confused:


....
....Would you like to hear my perception of Australians based on a limited number of posts I've read on this forum?;)

Personally I would love to hear your opinion based on what you have already admitted is a limited number of posts made by Aussies. :thumbup:

BTW, would you like to hear my honest opinion of most of your mob based on the large number of posts I have read over 10 years on the net (with close to 10 pages worth of saved url links that back up what I have said)?




Mick
 
Mick, I note that Australia has a very strong paddlesport culture, as does North America. Small man-powered boats are great way to get out beyond the pavement where the majority of folks on both continents live. Every year, fewer people grow up and live in rural areas. And paddlesports is one of the ways to introduce people to nature, and the outdoor experience. It allows people to learn at their own pace and to their own depth of interest. Some use it principally as a vehicle to fish or hunt on and around small lakes. Some as a means of watching birds and other wildlife. And some as transportation to remote areas beyond establish camps with utilities, for the enjoyment of "wilderness" camping.

Of course every type of paddlesports has it's skill set. Some have nothing to do with wilderness, however defined, wherever located. And the different disciplines require different equipment. One can get into canoeing or kayaking with minimal investment and minimal skills by renting equipment from outfitters. They can also rent camp gear in many places. Or a cabin or motel room if camping isn't their interest. Many will dabble on a holiday weekend and decide it just isn't for them. Some will fall in love with it and make a lifelong pursuit of it. And some will take it on as an atheletic competition and even an occupation.

I was introduced to canoes at an early age and did the same with my kids and grandchildren. As did I, they'll each choose how far their interest takes them. Whether it is an occasional paddle around a lake in a State Park, a downriver trip several times a year, or something they do as often as they can make an opportunity is totally up to them. Their equipment and skills will naturally follow their interests. So far, none of them have gone over to the dark side ("yakkers"). And none of them are as enthused as I am about going often as possible, trying new rivers and lakes, or even actually owning the boats and other gear themselves. But they are interested enough to go with me several times each year. And they do improve their skills at canoe handling and camping each time.

Mick, you've posted in this thread, which is about canoeing interests, several times now. Do you own or rent canoes? Do you enjoy the paddlesport opportunities in Australia? Have any related gear or skills to share with us?
 
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[video=youtube;enCWMkBVA7E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enCWMkBVA7E[/video]
 
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God, I truly love Mick and he’s one that will always make a challenge and despite his sometimes cantankerous perceptions is a very talented outdoorsman. I’ve been all over this globe and despite the vastness of our continent and large population, there are idiots all over and You-Tube really helps to highlight them; however, stupidity isn’t contained in America…it’s all over. There are numerous people you don’t see or here about that are very talented when it comes to woodcraft, watercraft or general outdoors activities. Don’t stereotype all based on the few who advertise their stupidity on You-Tube; I believe experience (and failure) is the best ingredient for knowledge but you can learn a lot from watching others (both what and what not to do!).

We actually do have a very large and competent population of outdoor enthusiasts from paddling sports, to hiking, hunting…you name it. It’s good to see how other people do things, but what I’ve found works in one area, doesn’t work it others; different vegetation, climate, altitude, etc.

I think we could debate and agree to disagree all day long on practices and activities in the outdoors, but I think we can all appreciate the desire to get out even if it doesn’t fit our own definition.

Back to the OP, I grew up canoeing and doing canoe trips up in Washington State and the Canadian BC area. We’ve actually been using kayaks recently and enjoy that different hobby. I still have a great appreciation for those that do multi-day canoe trips and water travel can get you to some pretty remote areas. I’ve just found kayaks easier for day trips in some of our ponds and creek areas. I still want to get a canoe for longer trips up the water-ways, but for now, kayaks serve our needs…

ROCK6
 
Kayaking has become very popular here in the midsouth. Almost every outfitter rents sitontop kayaks (too much liability to rent enclosed ones to inexperienced paddlers is my guess). In paddling groups there is friendly banter, even bumper stickers and t-shirts poking good natured fun at one or the other. It's all good. Kayaks are easier to store and transport than bigger canoes. Many kayak groups I see going downriver have one or two canoes along as support craft. The proliferation of designs today is amazing. As are the skills of some of the paddlers. Likewise canoe designs have expanded, particularly in the area of specialized whitewater canoes. If I still had the physical ability and agility, I would love to have one. I regret never having run the Chatooga and a few of the more extreme whitewater streams around here. New hull materials and designs make that a lot safer than it once was.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this subforum about "Outdoor gear, Survival Equipment and more"?

Maybe our misunderstanding is based on a difference of what we both consider as wilderness. :confused:
Or maybe one or two of us can't understand complicated words like "outdoor gear," "more," concepts like that...


BTW, would you like to hear my honest opinion of most of your mob
We've heard it, thank you.
 
So... steeping in nostalgia tonight, I looked up the old Blue Hole canoes that I used to rent, haul to the mountains and give a good thrashing. They were among, if not the first molded ABS canoes and from what I found, Dupont even made the first molds. The company started in 1972 in Antioch Tennessee and shortly moved to Sunbright, Tennessee in 1974. The original partners, Bob Lantz, Roy Guinn and Bill Peatman soon went seperate ways and one, Roy Guinn, started Dagger Canoes. The first model they produced was the OCA. Later they produced the Sunburst I & II, and the Starburst. In 1990 Blue Hole went out of business. The Blue Hole Company was resurrected in 1993 by John Williamson, who bought the assets including all the molds. They produced the OCA, Sunburst II, Starburst in Gordonsville, Virginia for a short while and then closed. Last I can find is that the names and molds were bought by Evergreen Canoe in Canada. I've found references to two other obscure models made which were flatwater solo designs by Mike Galt, the MGA and MGB.

This is the 16' OCA:

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And this is the Sunburst II:

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Good God - even a perfectly innocent thread about canoeing somehow turns into yet another ego-driven pissing match, as I've watched thread after thread on the "Community" forums become.

Before that, it was a mindless, and seemingly endless, argument about a cheap, celebrity-sponsored knife.

And before that is was a thread about sweaters. I can't even make this up.

How absolutely stupid and pathetic.

Goodnight, campers.
 
P.S. - apologies, Codger. I think you and I were typing at the same time. Kudos for being persistent about keeping the thread on topic.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this subforum about "Outdoor gear, Survival Equipment and more"?

Maybe our misunderstanding is based on a difference of what we both consider as wilderness. :confused:
The amount and type of "wilderness" we have available in the states varies with the state, but when I suggested this forum, it was with the intention of separating the discussions of outdoor recreation and survival. The title it was given did not bear that out, but it's not MY forum, and I'm happy we have it. This type of thread, without the stigma of "survival", is exactly what I was hoping to see, though.
There's a lot of fun to be had out there!
 
Mick,
As Cougar stated, this thread is about "Outdoor Gear".

Codger,
You are a wealth of information about canoing. Thank you for sharing.

Bill
 
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