Paddling into 2013

That's a great story! Yep, hopefully I can instill the love for the outdoors in them........ shouldn't take much!
Yeah I think this will be mostly a lake canoe for awhile at least!
 
Everytime I visit this section, I see more posts in this thread.... more posts that make me want to buy a canoe. Y'all are killing me. :mad:




:D
 
Woodrow F Call said:
Everytime I visit this section, I see more posts in this thread.... more posts that make me want to buy a canoe. Y'all are killing me. :mad:

:D
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Well, a lot of people spend more on one knife, one pack or tent than a decent used entry level canoe costs ( definately more on a bike or ATV). And if you are patient (the tough part) and cast a wide net, you can luck up on a real deal, either a project canoe or a "barn find" to be bought well below it's value. That's on the low end. On the high end, you can easily spend as much on a really nice new "state of the art" kevlar/graphite canoe as a used car or truck costs. And like vehicles, no one canoe design does everything well. So I guess the first move is to decide what you will primarily use the canoe for.

For example, I have a bad lust for a dedicated solo whitewater canoe and drool over every good used or refurbishable one I find. But I know it will not properly fill the hole in my fleet of canoes between the Old Town Discovery 169 "barge" and the Discovery 119K solo. A "heavy duty truck" and a "economy car". The dedicated ww canoes are specialized "sports cars" that, properly outfitted, will neither carry much weight nor be any fun at all to paddle on pool drop rivers. And I am no longer atheletic enough to take on challenging rivers where that type of canoe is most useful. My personal answer is to find a Royalex canoe with some rocker, some volume in bow and stern, some ability to track and sufficient volume to carry my usual load.

To this end, I just sold a major toy (antique car) and a minor toy (solo canoe) for enough to catch up some bills and expenses with a tad of play money left over. It does help that my children are grown and I no longer have a wife to contend with on toy purchases. And... just like buying knives... a big part of the fun can be in the "hunt"! :p

By the way, just so you know, Cliff Jacobson the canoe guru, who could have any canoe he wants including custom one-off boats, paddles a Bell Yellowstone. :D ("Kevlite" kevlar composit, not the lighter "Black Gold" carbon fiber job)
 
Codger_64 said:
Well, a lot of people spend more on one knife, one pack or tent than a decent used entry level canoe costs ( definately more on a bike or ATV). And if you are patient (the tough part) and cast a wide net, you can luck up on a real deal, either a project canoe or a "barn find" to be bought well below it's value. That's on the low end. On the high end, you can easily spend as much on a really nice new "state of the art" kevlar/graphite canoe as a used car or truck costs. And like vehicles, no one canoe design does everything well. So I guess the first move is to decide what you will primarily use the canoe for.

For example, I have a bad lust for a dedicated solo whitewater canoe and drool over every good used or refurbishable one I find. But I know it will not properly fill the hole in my fleet of canoes between the Old Town Discovery 169 "barge" and the Discovery 119K solo. A "heavy duty truck" and a "economy car". The dedicated ww canoes are specialized "sports cars" that, properly outfitted, will neither carry much weight nor be any fun at all to paddle on pool drop rivers. And I am no longer atheletic enough to take on challenging rivers where that type of canoe is most useful. My personal answer is to find a Royalex canoe with some rocker, some volume in bow and stern, some ability to track and sufficient volume to carry my usual load.

<SNIP>

By the way, just so you know, Cliff Jacobson the canoe guru, who could have any canoe he wants including custom one-off boats, paddles a Bell Yellowstone. :D ("Kevlite" kevlar composit, not the lighter "Black Gold" carbon fiber job)
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Well said. Just like knives, once you start to use them, you realize there are different knives for different cutting jobs. You try to start with one that has lots of utility, then gradually aquire more specialized types to fill your "specialty" needs. With knives, it's easier to aquire a large assortment to meet all your needs. With canoes, it's a little too tough on the wallet for most of us to do that! (You run out of storage room in a hurry, as well!)

I started with a Mad River Eclipse, bought used from a local river rental service, as my utility model. It's a high quality boat and I got it for less than the price of a cheap department store canoe. Tandem, Royalex Light, slight rocker... good for a little of everything from flatwater cruising to some whitewater adventuring. Next came a beautiful new Bell Northwind in Black Gold (carbon/Kevlar layup). It's a long (17'6") slender high-performance cruiser for covering lots of flatwater miles with a friend and camping gear. Pricey. but worth every penny IMO. I fell completely in love with the way that Bell paddled, but hated the fact that it wasn't much fun paddling it alone. So next came the Bell Magic solo canoe. It has an even higher length-to-width ratio than the Northwind (it's faster/more efficient) and is perfect for when I want to go out by myself.

Like Codger, I yearn for a solo whitewater boat. But, I realize I would rarely use it and it wouldn't be much good for any other use besides whitewater.

Like knives, canoes are ancient tools that we can still enjoy. If you're thinking of buying one, I'd recommend you pick up a few of the major manufacturer's catalogs. You can get a good education in hull designs and materials so you'll be better able to make a good first buying decision. Just be honest with yourself about what you'll use the boat for the most, and you'll be happy.

Good paddling,
desmobob
 
I'll add a bit (yes, you knew that I would!). Manufacturers and retailers host "try before you buy" demos all over the country every year. I went to one years ago in Pensacola and paddled a Bell Wildfire. I didn't buy that canoe partly because of the expense but mostly because it didn't fit my needs. But it was an enjoyable paddle on a small bay. I was impressed by how dry it rode when bow-on into waves, but it was so light that it was like a leaf in the wind and weathervaned constantly. Of course it was unloaded.
 
Just because I can: A vid just posted of Craig and friend surfing a WW canoe on the Cadron Creek in Arkansas recently. Ima thinking I might find a use for a dedicated WW canoe after all. Note the use of a skull bucket. And PFDs worn by all in spite of the shallow water and not too difficult I-II-III water.

[video=youtube;YQhy7mQNucw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQhy7mQNucw&feature=youtu.be[/video]

BTW, Craig is the most important crew member. The K-9 navigator. Trey Moore, the one with the paddle, is just the motor. This was shot with Go-Pro on Valentine's day with an air temp of around 70.

http://southwestpaddler.com/docs/arkansas5.html
 
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Yes. And sold in a day. It wasn't deep enough for an adult paddler and any gear at all. The Disco 119k is much better. And it has a raised seat where the Tupelo cane seat was velcro'd to the hull. I have much more freeboard in the Disco, which is a cheapened version of the Pack.
 
Codger_64 said:
Just because I can: A vid just posted of Craig and friend surfing a WW canoe on the Cadron Creek in Arkansas recently. Ima thinking I might find a use for a dedicated WW canoe after all. Note the use of a skull bucket. And PFDs worn by all in spite of the shallow water and not too difficult I-II-III water.
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That's an interesting canoe. I thought it was a Kayak at first? It looks pretty stable. Thanks for the video. :)
-Bruce
 
I'm not sure what make and model Trey's canoe is, but it is fairly typical for a dedicated whitewater canoe, short, relatively narrow with a lot of rocker. We never see his outfitting in the video, but besides being filled with airbags to exclude water, it likely has a saddle or pedestal rather than a typical canoe seat. And knee and toe blocks and thigh straps so he can stay in the canoe in an upset and roll it like a kayak. You note how easily he spins the canoe into eddys and how he surfs ledges.

Here are a selection of Mohawk brand WW boats so you can see the various "extreme" profiles.. http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/whitewater.html

Here is an old (mid-90's) Dagger Caption with multiple foam pedestals and no thigh straps. Note the airbags are partially deflated for storage.

xwscj.jpg


Outfitted like this, the paddler has to make a recovery using a high brace before becoming inverted, or be prepared to swim out for recovery from inversion.
 
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Thanks for the info and link Codger. :) Not being as athletic as I used to be either, I'm more curious at this point. I wouldn't mind trying this on a lake or river, but I suspect Whitewater may be more suited for the younger folk, or the seasoned canoe person. ;)
-Bruce
 
Ballenxj said:
Thanks for the info and link Codger. :) Not being as athletic as I used to be either, I'm more curious at this point. I wouldn't mind trying this on a lake or river, but I suspect Whitewater may be more suited for the younger folk, or the seasoned canoe person. ;)
-Bruce
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Well, these canoes are definately not suited for lakes and easy current pool rivers. You saw how easily they spin and turn. The rounded chines and lifted ends with a relatively flat center "pan" are designed specificly for whitewater moves, playing in currents and taking advantage of the dynamics of fast water. They would be very tiring to paddle on flat water, nearly impossible to keep tracking in a straight line without a lot of constant correction and effort. And their mostly short lengths provide little in the ability to go fast or glide. Paddlers do train to roll them in lakes and pools. And it would take some practice for it to become second nature.

I am not athletic as I once was either, not by a long shot. And when I was, the equipment was not nearly as specialized and sophisticated as it is now. Whitewater used to be a downstream sport where the idea was just to pass over, around and through features and obsticals. Now, it has been transformed by specialized canoes and kayaks into a play-sport where one can spend hours doing maneuvers (tricks) on just one or two ledges.

[video=youtube;BozjSg4p8QY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=BozjSg4p8QY[/video]

Playboaters today are not at all impressed with the whitewater runs we made in the late 1960's and early to mid 1970's. Some of those runs are today considered quite tame and the preferred runs now are the steeper creeks that we totally discounted back in the day as suicide runs. A lot of this is in part because of the equipment available. If there were air bag floatation back then, we were totally unaware of it. If floatation was added at all, it was a shaped and wrapped styrofoam dock billet tied into the center of the canoe under the thwarts. Saddles and pedistals were unheard of as well. One either paddled from stock bench seats or went to their knees in rough water to lower the center of gravity. And even in a sucessful run of a drop, likely as not, one had to beach the canoe below at first opportunity to dump the water out. Our first descents of the Cossatot ("Skull Crusher" in native lingo) were the death defying ultimate. People were incredulous when you said you had run it. Today, it is considered a fun run because canoe and kayak designs, PFD's, helmets and pads (not to mention developed skills) have made it far safer to push the envelope.

Here is a run on the Big Piney River called the "Cascades Of Extinction" ending with a rock we named the "Big Mother" back in the day. This is at higher flow where the "Mother" is more easily avoided and the falls are pretty well submerged. This is one rapid where my wife was prone to get out and walk.

[video=youtube;Liha_xwiwtc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liha_xwiwtc[/video]

I know it doesn't look like much in this video, but at a different level, it is a meatgrinder, particularly with old style open boats.

This video shows the "bones" of the river during a drought, so you can see the size of the Big Mother (BMF), and the upstream boulder not mentioned is the "Little Mother" (LMF). Over time the "F" has been dropped from the name. It is a much rougher run at certain levels and the main force slams the canoe into the Big Mother for an upset before dropping into the pool, or if really unlucky, a pin in the slot you see.
 
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You're really making me homesick guys. I want so badly to go home and go for a paddle up Drift Creek or perhaps downriver to Waldport.
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I need to move my aft seat further forward. Have any of you moved or added seats to an aluminum canoe? Is it difficult?
 
If the canoe is symmetrical (most aluminum canoes are) the typical fix is to sit in the bow seat facing the stern, making it the new bow. It puts your weight closer to the center of the canoe. Most aluminum canoes have the seats positioned and riveted in to act as side-to-side bracing. Moving one more than a few inches might require adding a thwart for stiffness. I have moved seats and moved and added thwarts in fiberglass canoes and in plastic ones, but not in an aluminum one. I use the turn-around method in my tandems when going solo and it is an improvement, without having to add bow weight with rocks or buckets of water.
 
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I'm going to need one for a fatboy and gear. I'd like to use it to get to inaccessible areas during hunting season and maybe camping in the off season. No white water for me.
 
Thanks Codger. I do turn it around when I solo, the problem comes into play when I'm with SWMBO. She is far too light to make up for my weight.
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Perhaps adding some extra fishing gear and anchors may be just the ticket. Or perhaps I could lose some weight.:D
 
Then you might like the Old Town Discovery series or the Stillwater or Sarnac. Box stores like Dicks and Gander have them a bit cheaper. And some models can be had in dark olive or even camo.
 
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