Pakistan Damascus, You Guys Are Wrong!

yeah, don't always take hand made as good thing.

I'll hand make you a knife right now and I guarantee disappointment :p

but like I said, glad you like it, and I truly hope it works out for you.
 
Am I wrong, or was ancient Damascus IN what is now Syria??? It might be cool to buy a Damascus knife FROM Damascus.

I like crude-looking stuff, but this knife isn't. The fit and finish is pretty darn flawless. I'm sure you get what you get in a cottage industry. You've got to be careful about judging what you haven't seen. Cottage industry can be as different as one factory to the next.

Do you think the cable Damascus is made bulk in a factory, like in bars, that are then shipped out to knife makers who cut and grind them to shape? That's possible.

That would kind of lend itself to quality though. If a factory makes these bars out of old cable, then surely they would clean them first as part of the standard manufacturing process. After all, THEY are selling their product to a huge number of cottage knife makers. It's hard to market sub-standard crap to blacksmiths I imagine.

I would actually rather a Pakistani blacksmith made the cable Damascus himself in his forge. It's cooler.

I want steel that's not to hard. These knives are obviously CAPABLE of being sharpened to a razor edge. You have to qualify "Holding an edge." How about if you use the knife to whittle a walking stick out of a seasoned oak stick? If the knife was still sharp at the end, would that mean it "Holds an edge." Rockwell hardness isn't an end to itself.
What do you do with your knives, hack down saplings, chop bricks?? I would properly test it out, but I'm unlikely to clear a 14 mile path through heavy cherry saplings with my 5" blade. I guess I could chop down a fairly large Live Oak with it, but it'll take awhile.

This is blacksmith steel, probably made by equipment that could have come from the 1400's. That's what I WANT. You can bet it's better steel than you could have really gotten in 1400. In the US, you pay 100's of $ for this degree of primitive.
 
Am I wrong, or was ancient Damascus IN what is now Syria??? It might be cool to buy a Damascus knife FROM Damascus.
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Apparently, it was labeled "Damascus" because it was encountered in Damascus by Europeans and incorrectly assumed to have been made there.

In the same fashion, Victorian army officers encountered a strain of cat from India in Abyssinia (Ethiopia to us) and labeled that strain "Abyssinian."
 
Allow me to continue my rant...

This is Cable Damascus, I looked it up. It was made from old steel cables. Why would the call it Cable Damascus if it wasn't? We KNOW what it's made of. It's made of old steel cables, not pots and pans or 1095, or whatever. They didn't "Throw all kinds of metal in there." They didn't have to. They're TELLING you what they've used, steel cable. The issue of what kind of steel they were using is moot. They were using old steel cables. If it were properly cleaned first, now there's an issue.

I think you guys are dissing Paki Damascus for no other reason that you've "Heard" it's cheap. I've got other Paki Damascus knives. They look good, they're still razor sharp, and none of them have broken, or come apart. (I do have a big Fox and Hound chopper I use to clear branches for my tree stand, it's sharp, it still is). The fit and finish is as good as uneven hand-made can be.

I bet NONE of you have ever have ever broken or dulled a Paki Damascus knife. You probably don't even own one.

I can't believe how many times the word, "Probably," is being used as an actual arguing point.
 
Uath said:
Am I wrong, or was ancient Damascus IN what is now Syria??? It might be cool to buy a Damascus knife FROM Damascus.

I like crude-looking stuff, but this knife isn't. The fit and finish is pretty darn flawless. I'm sure you get what you get in a cottage industry. You've got to be careful about judging what you haven't seen. Cottage industry can be as different as one factory to the next.

Do you think the cable Damascus is made bulk in a factory, like in bars, that are then shipped out to knife makers who cut and grind them to shape? That's possible.

That would kind of lend itself to quality though. If a factory makes these bars out of old cable, then surely they would clean them first as part of the standard manufacturing process. After all, THEY are selling their product to a huge number of cottage knife makers. It's hard to market sub-standard crap to blacksmiths I imagine.

I would actually rather a Pakistani blacksmith made the cable Damascus himself in his forge. It's cooler.

I want steel that's not to hard. These knives are obviously CAPABLE of being sharpened to a razor edge. You have to qualify "Holding an edge." How about if you use the knife to whittle a walking stick out of a seasoned oak stick? If the knife was still sharp at the end, would that mean it "Holds an edge." Rockwell hardness isn't an end to itself.
What do you do with your knives, hack down saplings, chop bricks?? I would properly test it out, but I'm unlikely to clear a 14 mile path through heavy cherry saplings with my 5" blade. I guess I could chop down a fairly large Live Oak with it, but it'll take awhile.

This is blacksmith steel, probably made by equipment that could have come from the 1400's. That's what I WANT. You can bet it's better steel than you could have really gotten in 1400. In the US, you pay 100's of $ for this degree of primitive.
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Bars, or sheets or what not.

No they really don't have to do anything nor use modern equipment. They can just melt a lot of metal (steel, and pot metals) together, mix in, and you end up with a cheap looking damacus.

Folding it can be done easily enough, folding metal doesn't require tremendous skill (unless of course you want to manipulate the grain).
What really requires skill, and A LOT of time is forge welding the folds. The reason pakistani damascus is looked down upon is because cottage makers have built a reputation for using whatever metal they can to make look-a-like damascus. The few that take pride, and pump out nice knives are overshadowed by the bad.

If you don't mind I would like to inject a little personal opinion of history of folded blades.

Many hundreds of years ago before quality steel was produced obtaining a batch of steel in places like Japan was very expensive, and very extensive in labor. It took many days of no-sleeping for the smelting master to make a batch of steel that may be suitable to send to a sword maker. The sword maker would then take up to 2 months (usually 1 month~) to hammer and fold the steel over and over to get rid of impurities, and try to even out the carbon. Taking great care in very fold, and the addition of carbon and other reaction agents (straw's with a weird mud) to help weld the folds.
A sword maker who would waste steel would likely go to the back end due to the waste of time for the smelt master as well as other professionals such as the handle (tsuka- less than a month), scabbard (saya less than a month), wrappers (itomaki about a month of time) as well as polishers (anywhere from months to years due to wait lists) and fitting makers (koshirae,1 month to several months). To give an idea, I put some time frames for individual artisans.

This is what ancient smiths had to work hard for and what maker makers now a days work hard for as well. All of this effort only for people anywhere in the world trying to take short cuts to damascus making, and putting out bad products. That's why there's such resentment and disbelief for pakistani made damascus knives.
 
Uath said:
This is Cable Damascus, I looked it up. It was made from old steel cables. Why would the call it Cable Damascus if it wasn't? We KNOW what it's made of. It's made of old steel cables, not pots and pans or 1095, or whatever. They didn't "Throw all kinds of metal in there." They didn't have to. They're TELLING you what they've used, steel cable. The issue of what kind of steel they were using is moot. They were using old steel cables. If it were properly cleaned first, now there's an issue.
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They didn't throw all kinds of metal in there. They threw all kinds of steel cable in there. I sincerely doubt that all that cable was properly cleaned, too.
 
Uath, posters here are generalizing from the massively poor reputation of knives from Pakistan, a reputation shared on other knife forums around the world. Generalizing from widely held beliefs is not an unusual way of looking at things. "Probably" allows for exceptions, and you may have an exception. There is, after all, a tree planted in Israel for an Nazi humanitarian. Even the most widely-held opinion is subject to exceptions.

I sharpen knives for friends and neighbors who are unable or unwilling to do so. One of them bought a large "American style tanto" in Damascus that carries the Marble's brand. The fit and finish is a bit rough. The steel is a bit soft. It takes a good edge readily but he's been back twice to have me sharpen it again. The steel is certainly softer than that on my old marble's knives from pre-WW II. I do not see any voids in the steel.

Best of luck with your particular knife.
 
Do you own one?
Have you used it to do anything?
What do you define as "Holding an edge?"

*Do you know of anyone who has broken one, or had the metal of one come apart on them?*

(Note)
This last question is crucial as it directly applies to the "Notorious for poor welding" comments. Also, we must question the "Improperly cleaned" criteria. Was the person who made this standard an expert in the manufacturing of cable Damascus?
"All kinds of steel cable," is applicable. I'm willing to admit that there must be all kinds of it. I HOPE it's strong. One has to take such things on faith I suppose.

How about getting a sheet of metal, having blades stamped out of it, have a computer grind (whatever shape is possible to grind out of a sheet of flat metal), tempering it in a computer kiln, putting it in a plastic sheath, then selling it to knife experts for hundreds of $??
Shoot, take away the paint and you can even see the little lines in the steel.

Urban Legend is a funny thing. It can apply in all sorts of different contexts.

Here's evidence I'll respect:
Get a Pakistan Damascus and try to break it. Clamp it and slam it with a sledge hammer. Try to ruin the edge with a file and chisel, really put it to the test. Then, take out your hand-made, expertly welded, 1000,000,000$ Damascus knife and try to break it in exactly the same way.

Let's see
 
I'd only consider buying a Pakistani knife that had a full visible tang. I saw a massive 13-inch, very pointy full tang Paki damascus dagger for a ridiculously low price on Ebay, was tempted, I wouldn't even care if it held a great edge as long as it was well-constructed and sturdy, but the price rose to a ridiculous amount with bidding...

I'm fully aware of the... "quality issues" with Pakistani knives, but if Uarth says his has great fit and finish I'm inclined to believe him. Materials themselves might not be great.
 
Uath said:
Here's evidence I'll respect:
Get a Pakistan Damascus and try to break it. Clamp it and slam it with a sledge hammer. Try to ruin the edge with a file and chisel, really put it to the test. Then, take out your hand-made, expertly welded, 1000,000,000$ Damascus knife and try to break it in exactly the same way.

Let's see
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So your saying that since an expensive knife cant hold up to being hit with a sledgehammer in a vice then you might as well just buy any knife? That logic is completely flawed. An appropriate test would be repeated cutting of rope to test the edge retention.
 
But we would compare an "Expertly Welded" CABAL Damascus to my "Marbles" Cabal Damascus right?? Like in they were both formed out of old steel cable... right?

I am kind of saying I think my Pakistan cabal Damascus IS just as strong as an expensive one. I think the whole "Cheap, poorly welded" stuff is just unfounded opinion. Like I say, I've used my 30$ Fox and Hound chopper for years, and it's every bit as good as my Brute.

We're more into knives than anyone. Have any of you ever had a Pakistan Damascus knife break or come apart??? Yes, or no
 
Generally-held opinion (pro or con) may be "urban legend" - or not. You have not come to a place where Pakistani knives are held in high regard. What is your objective?

Respectfully, a wrecking bar is unlikely to "come apart" or "break," but is it a "knife"? Just speaking for myself, I put considerable value on the ability of a knife to remain sharp during a reasonable amount of work.

Rather than trying to convince folks who have a low opinion of your knife, sight-unseen, how about just enjoying your knife? The best revenge is happiness.
 
Oh, come on, I'm just having fun. I own TONS of knives. Each one sees very little "use."

It's kind of interesting the legend of Cheap Paki Damascus, with NO evidence. Edge Holding is subjective. I honestly think that ALL Damascus steel is a bit softer than 1095, or 440, or whatever, and so?????

Honestly, I think I can paraphrase the entire argument:

"Around here, we don't like that Paki crap. We think it's poorly made (for some reason we don't have to define)... Poorly welded, that's right, us experts know that welding is hard and they're not doing it right somehow... I've never used one enough to dull it, but I bet they don't hold no kind of edge. Shoot! They probably throw pots and pans, and maybe even babies, in there. You wouldn't catch me holding crap like that in my hand. Give me China any day."
 
How about your make a video of it's glorious edge retention and sledgehammer defying craftsmanship.

The proof is in the pudding, so put up or...
 
So you're defending a knife that you just got and didn't use yet. That doesn't seem too smart eh? So, stop yacking and start whacking. I'm genuinely curious to see how it preforms :)
 
Locutus D'Borg said:
Paki damascus is notoriously difficult to photograph. That's probably why Chris Reeve and most other known knife-makers don't use it.
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What?? That is the only reason? I think you need to start citing sources before making statements with such certainty. I would think that the reason many US knifemakers don't use Paki Damascus is because the majority of it has been layers of potmetal welded together poorly, along with a homemade heat treat.
 
Ha! That was genuinely funny.

I really am just farting around. You know I don't really care that much. Still, come on, has anyone ever broken one?

I honestly don't know what I would do to test this one out. I don't really want to. It's so pretty! Cut vegetables?/ Go out and cut vines?? I DO live in the woods, but I don't want to hack down a tree. The Real test are my toenails, but we won't go into that.

Here's one I can talk about from experience. Here's the Fox and Hound (Yes, a Pakistan Damascus) I use to cut branches:

fox_n_hound_damascus_bolo_bowie_knife_FH612.jpg


Hey, I HAVE used this one. It's a good knife. It's fit and finish are great, there are no gaps. The maker obviously used artistry in the design. Despite chopping hard, nothing has shaken loose. Yes I've sharpened it, but it's always been pretty damn sharp to me. It's not like I ever NOTICED having to sharpen it. I just did it when I went out, or not... whatever. It's sharp, damn sharp. I wouldn't want to get cut by it.

Certainly, the blade isn't coming apart, certainly!

To tell the truth, it's a pretty good looking knife and it still is!
Get one, they're great for chopping off branches when you in a climbing stand. I'll tell you that cause I know.
It's a good knife, good as any, better than most. I don't know anything about cheaply made.

There, that's a review from someone who has actually owned and used a Pakistan Damascus knife.
 
RevDevil said:
What?? That is the only reason? I think you need to start citing sources before making statements with such certainty. I would think that the reason many US knifemakers don't use Paki Damascus is because the majority of it has been layers of potmetal welded together poorly, along with a homemade heat treat.
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I took that as a deadpan joke.
 
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