Pattern description: Sunfish vs. Sleeveboard

[pertinux]

From a discussion of Queen's naming conventions:

A Sleeveboard Sunfish Whittler (4 1/4" Queen frame)...wait a minute are you sure you don't want to include another pattern in the description.... a Sunfish is one pattern and a Sleeveboard is another...

Could someone please explain the difference between a Sunfish and a Sleeveboard?

I've noticed, for example, that GEC calls some of its #26s Sleeveboards, and others Pocket Sunfish, but don't know why.

Thanks!

~ P.

 

[Blues]

I'd consider the knife displayed above to be a jumbo sleeveboard...not a sunfish.

A sunfish (or elephant toenail, rope knife etc) is generally considered to be a very large, very wide equal-end or swell center knife.

Don Hanson "Sunfish" (1095/203E, Jigged Rosewood), circa 1994. 4.5" closed, 9.5 oz

 

[screened porch]

+1 on what's a sunfish.
Strictly speaking, I think a whittler is supposed to have one spring split at one end with two small blades bearing each on one split end, and one large blade bearing on the whole un-split end of the spring.
Something like that.

 

[knarfeng]

IIRC, according to Levine, attaching the split spring requirement to the term "whittler" is a recent development.

 

[Blues]

Insofar as whittlers are concerned (and the term is used rather loosely these days), there are those with an actual split spring (you don't see too many these days) and the more common two springs separated by a tapered liner. In each instance the master blade would rest on the full width of either the single or doubled springs while the two accessory blades would each ride on one half of the split or one spring each.

For simplicity's sake, think of the letter "Y" with the accessory blades on either side of the fork and the master on the other end riding on the full width.

 

[Tony Bose]

Blues has got it right, that's a jumbo sleeveboard. Most of the old ones had parallell backsprings with a catch bit between the 2 small blades.

 

[ea42]

The only thing that'll be whittling is a tree stump! Just because a knife has that spring configuration doesn't automatically make it a whittler, there are plenty of sleeveboard and senator pattern knives configured that way, some with a file for one of the blades. That's about as far from a whittler as you can get, unless of course you assume that the file was put there to sand the wood down
At the very least a whittler should be equipped with a coping or sheepfoot blade. Heck Walt Garrison had Schrade assemble whittling knives for him on the 8OT stockman frame with three sheepfoot blades!

[/IMG]

Eric

 

[Blues]

Blues has got it right, that's a jumbo sleeveboard. Most of the old ones had parallell backsprings with a catch bit between the 2 small blades.

Thanks, Tony. :thumbup:

 

[pertinux]

Thanks for the input.

A sunfish (or elephant toenail, rope knife etc) is generally considered to be a very large, very wide equal-end or swell center knife.

Blues has got it right, that's a jumbo sleeveboard. Most of the old ones had parallell backsprings with a catch bit between the 2 small blades.

Going by the above, GEC's "Pocket Sunfish," neither equal-end nor swell-center, doesn't fit the standard criteria....

What of what they call a "Sleeveboard"?

The only distinction I can see are the wharncliffe and coping blades as opposed to either Spear or Clip and a secondary Pen.

(I'm using the above examples as a starting place simply because they're the only one's I've seen personally.)

Or perhaps more directly, regardless of GEC's conformity to understood norms: if a Sunfish is as described above by Blues and confirmed by Tony Bose, what is different about a "Sleeveboard"? Or, is a Sunfish a type of sleeveboard?

Thank you all for your forbearance.

~ P.

 

[Blues]

A sleeveboard pattern is shaped like a sleeveboard. (Like those old style ironing boards.)

 

[ea42]

Sleeveboards got their name from actual sleeveboards that were used for ironing sleeves. They're wider on one end so that a sleeve could be slid over the board and fit flat for ease of ironing. Sunfish are traditionally an equal end knife.

Eric

Dang, sorry Elliott, you must have been posting while I was typing!

 

[Tony Bose]

A sleeveboard is a handle shape like the sleeveboard on an old ironing board. A sunfish or toenail pattern is not shaped like a sleeveboard. Doesn't matter what blades are in it . Remington made a single blade sleeveboard that had 2 backspringa resting on the head end on a fiber spacer. By doing this they didn't have to make a die for a spring, they used the one they had. Somewhere in here is a picture of one I saw a while back.

You can never figure out why old companys called the same pattern a different name, I been looking at them all my life and still can't.

 

[pertinux]

A sleeveboard pattern is shaped like a sleeveboard. (Like those old style ironing boards.)

Sleeveboards got their name from actual sleeveboards that were used for ironing sleeves. They're wider on one end so that a sleeve could be slid over the board and fit flat for ease of ironing. Sunfish are traditionally an equal end knife.

A sleeveboard is a handle shape like the sleeveboard on an old ironing board....

Oh, okay-- got it!

No really, I have this, built into the cabinets our older house:

In the center cabinet:

I do whatever it takes not to use it, but I gots it (lacking the rounding-off of the larger edge, but I can use my imagination).

So sometimes, a pattern name makes sense(!), being directly descriptive. Nice.

A sunfish or toenail pattern is not shaped like a sleeveboard. Doesn't matter what blades are in it . Remington made a single blade sleeveboard that had 2 backspringa resting on the head end on a fiber spacer. By doing this they didn't have to make a die for a spring, they used the one they had. Somewhere in here is a picture of one I saw a while back.

You can never figure out why old companys called the same pattern a different name, I been looking at them all my life and still can't.

Thanks again, everyone. This is all very helpful in understanding what I'm looking at, and in realizing what might continue to puzzle due to inconsistent nomenclature.

~ P.

 

[Blues]

Sleeveboards got their name from actual sleeveboards that were used for ironing sleeves. They're wider on one end so that a sleeve could be slid over the board and fit flat for ease of ironing. Sunfish are traditionally an equal end knife.

Eric

Dang, sorry Elliott, you must have been posting while I was typing!

No problem at all, Eric...I'm just glad I didn't mess it up. I always appreciate the info you share here on the forum. :thumbup:

A sleeveboard is a handle shape like the sleeveboard on an old ironing board. A sunfish or toenail pattern is not shaped like a sleeveboard. Doesn't matter what blades are in it . Remington made a single blade sleeveboard that had 2 backspringa resting on the head end on a fiber spacer. By doing this they didn't have to make a die for a spring, they used the one they had. Somewhere in here is a picture of one I saw a while back.

You can never figure out why old companys called the same pattern a different name, I been looking at them all my life and still can't.

Thanks again, Tony, I was about to type about the blade selection aspect when Smoky gave me "that look" which meant "stop typing now and get me the heck outside". Lucky for Sarah that was the case so she could get the info from sources that actually know what they're talking about.

 

[Will Power]

The GEC Watch Pocket 26 I have in PB is a very tidy knife, well made but has a spring for the alpha thumbnail...

I thought it was just a variation on a theme, a reverse ended version of the 25..hence the need for coining it as Watchpocket Sunfish. Shrink to fit terminology.

 

[Mike Robuck]

A sleeveboard is a handle shape like the sleeveboard on an old ironing board. A sunfish or toenail pattern is not shaped like a sleeveboard. Doesn't matter what blades are in it . Remington made a single blade sleeveboard that had 2 backspringa resting on the head end on a fiber spacer. By doing this they didn't have to make a die for a spring, they used the one they had. Somewhere in here is a picture of one I saw a while back.

You can never figure out why old companys called the same pattern a different name, I been looking at them all my life and still can't.

Levine wrote about the single blade, special order version in the September issue of Knife World. He also wrote about the variations with multiple blades.

 

[screened porch]

IIRC, according to Levine, attaching the split spring requirement to the term "whittler" is a recent development.

Interesting. I don't know why I get drawn into these things. It's almost as if I think I know more than I do know. Nah, couldn't be that-

 

[pertinux]

The GEC Watch Pocket 26 I have in PB is a very tidy knife, well made but has a spring for the alpha thumbnail...

I thought it was just a variation on a theme, a reverse ended version of the 25..hence the need for coining it as Watchpocket Sunfish. Shrink to fit terminology.

Perhaps?

Going off of that thought, however: does a sleeveboard pattern typically have its main blade at the larger end, thus distinguishing it from a swell-end jack (as one example) that would have its blade(s) at the smaller end?

~ P.

 

[Blues]

however: does a sleeveboard pattern typically have its main blade at the larger end, thus distinguishing it from a swell-end jack (as one example) that would have its blade(s) at the smaller end?

On a sleeveboard jack, (both blades on same end), most had the blades from the smaller end but either method of construction was common enough.

On a sleeveboard pen, (blades on each end), normally the master blade was on the wider end.

 

[pertinux]

On a sleeveboard jack, (both blades on same end), most had the blades from the smaller end but either method of construction was common enough.

On a sleeveboard pen, (blades on each end), normally the master blade was on the wider end.

Sooo... is it possible for a sleeveboard jack and a swell-end jack to be two different names for the same thing (not universally, but in specific instances)?

~ P.