Paying Tribute, Flattery or “You Stole My Design”?

[Kevin Jones]

What’s your opinion on makers utilizing other maker’s designs? Is a maker simply honoring or paying tribute to another maker in creating a rendition of his/her design, or is it taking advantage of another’s talent and/or hard work?

How about when a collector or dealer asks a particular maker to create a knife similar to another maker’s design? Is this acceptable?

We touched on this subject briefly in another thread however I thought it an interesting enough subject which we could possibly benefit from further discussion.

Many of the custom knifemakers in the world have at some point in their career created their own representation of the Loveless Drop Point Hunter and/or other Loveless designs. There are other maker’s knife designs which are borrowed as well, yet no one seems to as much as bat an eye when some of these well know designs are reproduced at various degrees of success. So does this mean it’s an excepted and welcomed practice or that’s it OK with some maker’s knife designs but not others?

Since becoming involved in custom knives I have found makers in general to be incredibly generous in the sharing of their processes, techniques and even designs.

Some may agree that its common courtesy for a maker to inform or ask another maker’s permission to use his/her designs. But is it necessary or mandatory, especially if only a single design element is used, or it’s just a one knife or the maker identifies his knife as a rendition of another maker’s design?

Makers, do you have any rules or guidelines as to what you considered acceptable in your using other maker’s design or elements of such?

How do you feel about other makers using your designs or elements of such?

As always, thank you in advance for your opinions, views and participation.

 

[JParanee]

Good thread Kevin ..This should be interesting.. I will weight in when I have more time

 

[Jos]

Of course it's good courtesy to ask permission.

And I also think it's neccesary to give credit. For example a knifemaker who makes a Randall nr. 1 style knife should mention he was inspired by Randall.

Kind regards,

Jos

 

[WalterDavis]

I think it depends on how varied the copy is. If it's basically a direct copy, then ask permission first. If it's an interpretation, or 'inpired by', then note it. If you are using a fairly 'proprietary' design element then definitely ask the originator. Give credit where credit is due-for a couple of reasons: first, it could save you some hassle should anything you copy be copyrighted or patented and second, karma is a PITA sometimes It would be 'less than pleasant' to cut your knifemaking teeth on other's designs only to finally come up with something original and have it pulled out from underneath you

That's just my opinion, though, YMMV

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Of course it's good courtesy to ask permission.

And I also think it's neccesary to give credit. For example a knifemaker who makes a Randall nr. 1 style knife should mention he was inspired by Randall.

Kind regards,

Jos

well said...

I made a large camp knife awhile back , to me , it didn't look like anything I had seen on forums lately , so I thought I was in good shape. After showing it to a bud he said " that looks like an old school Busse from xx years ago... ".

I snapped a picture , emailed it to Jerry Busse , he confirmed , it did look like one of their older models from many years ago , but without the for & aft lanyard holes. He also said that while he can see the similarities , he can also see the differences and that he had no issue with me making more of my design.

I never did though , out of respect him. He was gracious and offered me even more suggestions on modifications I can do to it to make it better for other tasks.

I had a similar experience with a little Kiridashi I made . After finishing it and surfin the web searching for Kiridash's , I found a Fred Perrin that mine closely resembled...darn it !

Emailed Fred , he informed me that he was not the originator of that design and had seen it in wood working tools years ago ( Chinese wood working if I recall ) , but he would have no problem with me using it . So when I make one I call it Perrin inspired , because subliminally it probably was.

I find it to be very friendly if you drop a maker a simple : Hey , I came up with this design , it looks similar to your design , my intent was not to copy , can I get your thoughts on it ?
or
" This knife was inspired by your work. Please let me know if you feel it too closely resembles your work "

Steps like that go along way to keeping things civil , and continuing the share of knowledge.

As far as the Loveless patterns , I am unsure if Bob openly shares his designs or not. I was sent a modified pattern of one of his designs years ago from another maker , which in turn I changed a bit , regardless of my changes , I call it a Loveless inspired knife.

great thread !

 

[betzner]

I happened to mention a Joe Kious design in Paul Long's thread on that wonderful little knife he was given. I also mentioned that another maker, Ray Cover, Sr, had made several of the same design.

I made no presumption about whose design it was, but knowing the two indirectly from Blade and mutual acquaintences, I figured neither really would have cared had they known.

Tactical knives seem to be a very separate issue when discussing this topic. There have been several threads, not necessarily in the custom section, on manufacturers copying makers, makers copying makers, etc.

I for one think this is going to be a LONG thread~!!!

Thanks for bringing it up, Kevin!

 

[Keith Montgomery]

It is always nice to ask permission, but in some cases it isn't really necessary.
From what I understand, Bob Loveless has given his permission for other makers to use his designs without having to get his OK. There have been other makers that feel the same way. However, there are many makers that get right upset when one of their designs appears on the market from another maker and they weren't contacted about it first.

Giving credit to a maker when you use a maker's design is always a good thing to do, but in the case of Loveless or Moran is it really necessary? How many knife people wouldn't recognize one of those makers' designs?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Of course it's good courtesy to ask permission.

And I also think it's neccesary to give credit. For example a knifemaker who makes a Randall nr. 1 style knife should mention he was inspired by Randall.

Kind regards,

Jos

I too feel it's VERY important for a maker to give credit/identify the designs original creator.
Though I'm not sure your Randall examples flies as I'm sure I am correct in stating that most production knife designs are protected by patents. Though I realize Randalls aren't exactly production knives in the truest sense of the term.

 

[T.K.C.]

Of course it's good courtesy to ask permission.

And I also think it's neccesary to give credit. For example a knifemaker who makes a Randall nr. 1 style knife should mention he was inspired by Randall.

Kind regards,

Jos

I agree 100%!!!

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when someone makes a blatant copy of another knife makers knife, and takes sole credit for it. That just frosts my cookies!

 

[haggismonger]

I agree with giving credit where credit is due, but how far do you go without leaving someone out? I feel there are too many designs that have inspired my own knives to ever make a full accounting, and truth be told, there really is nothing new under the sun, so henceforth and forever does every drop point hunter always have to be Loveless-esque? I think not. I have seen so many beautiful bowies that have so much in common with each other that you'd be truly hard-pressed sometimes to tell them apart without looking at the mark. We as knifemakers are too eager sometimes to chance upon that 'one design' that completely fulfills the needs of every hand, but it cannot happen, simply because those hands are attached to too many different minds and tastes. Yes, the Loveless hunter design is close to ideal in many applications, but I don't feel the need to provide a bibliography for every curve and edge, every turn of the file and every expression of embellishment. I think it's safe to say that knifemakers will be able to recognize commonalities between design types, and not feel slighted or maligned if they see a familiar curve or technique in anothers work when they themselves have tipped their hat gratefully to those makers that have made a name for themselves previously.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think it depends on how varied the copy is. If it's basically a direct copy, then ask permission first. If it's an interpretation, or 'inpired by', then note it. If you are using a fairly 'proprietary' design element then definitely ask the originator. Give credit where credit is due-for a couple of reasons: first, it could save you some hassle should anything you copy be copyrighted or patented and second, karma is a PITA sometimes It would be 'less than pleasant' to cut your knifemaking teeth on other's designs only to finally come up with something original and have it pulled out from underneath you

That's just my opinion, though, YMMV

Walter, I believe you and I are thinking along the same lines in that some knife designs are very precise and others vary quite a bit from knife to knife.
Some are made the same via pattern, others having specific handle/blade shapes and features however size varies and again others where there's very little consistency from knife to knife.

The more distinct the design and the copy, the more need to get buy-in from the maker. Though as you said, always give credit where credit is due.

 

[WyoNonSmith]

I say have at it, as was pointed out above:"truth be told, there really is nothing new under the sun,". In one way or another, it has all been done in some capcity.
If a particular knife maker inspired you, by all means mention it or tip your hat to them in some way.
I don't think there is anything left to steal, as much as some would have us believe otherwise. Just take it as flattery and move on.
I think this pertains to handmade forged knives.
Production is another matter, but it is still a concept of nothing new.

 

[ArtinNC]

I say have at it, as was pointed out above:"truth be told, there really is nothing new under the sun,". In one way or another, it has all been done in some capcity.
If a particular knife maker inspired you, by all means mention it or tip your hat to them in some way.
I don't think there is anything left to steal, as much as some would have us believe otherwise. Just take it as flattery and move on.
I think this pertains to handmade forged knives.
Production is another matter, but it is still a concept of nothing new.

And like a earlier post here (((I made a large camp knife awhile back , to me , it didn't look like anything I had seen on forums lately , so I thought I was in good shape. After showing it to a bud he said " that looks like an old school Busse from xx years ago... ".))))

I think you can take any knife and say any part of it looks like someones else's knife. On another forum someone posted a picture of a knife that he made and I had never heard of this maker. And I PM him with a picture of the same knife that I had made and I don't think he had ever seen my knife, and they looked like they were made off the same pattern. So unless you are making fantasy
knives you are going to have look alikes. . So I agree with the above statement 100%.
Art

 

[Hmathews]

When we started out making knives on purpose, we had several blade shapes that we liked and used them without directly copying any knife in particular. Bob Loveless has been for years given credit for popularizing the drop point hunter and rightly so. The drop point knife that influenced our first drop point hunter was a trench knife that was made prior to Loveless making his first knife, but someone seeing that knife would see a "Loveless" influence. I once saw a flint knife in a museum that was in the shape of what we think of as a Bowie knife today. Who knows when that design was first utilized? Michael Price used a handle shape that is very similar to one that we have used since we started making knives. We didn't copy his, we came up with a shape we liked and found out later that he liked the same shape. It happens. To me, there just isn't much out there in knife design that is worth doing that hasn't been done before at some time in history.

That being said, there are "looks" generated by grind lines, choice of handle shapes, guard designs, materials, etc. that create a recognizable knife as made by a particular maker. Bob Loveless, Ed Fowler, and many others make knives whose style can be recognized across a room. Some makers have permission to copy other maker’s knives some don't. To me it is only right to ask if you want to make a direct copy of someone's knife.

We won't copy another maker’s knife. One instance that comes to mind is a person that asked us to make a knife that looked like one of Ed Fowler's only made from stainless steel. We declined the chance to make it. It just would not have been right. We had one customer with a picture of a particular Loveless knife that he wanted us to copy. We talked him into contacting a Loveless dealer that we know and getting a real Loveless knife. He later came back to us and thanked us for making the recommendation. He would never have been satisfied until he got a real Loveless and we saved him some time and money.

We are influenced by styles that are attributed to others. Hueske, Scagel, Price, Valachovic, Randall are just a few. There are others and some of our knives carry the style of the knife in the model name. Like our Scagel style clip point. We do things that would prevent it from ever being mistaken for a Scagel knife.

We have had several makers ask if they could make a similar knife to one that we make. We have always felt good that they liked what we were making and that they respected us enough to ask. All they had to do was just make it if that is what they wanted to do. I even had one young maker, that I have a lot respect for, ask me if he could copy a guard I had made for a fighting knife. It is one that is not seen often, but it has roots deep in history and I can't claim to own the design. I was glad to let him copy it and told him a couple of things to watch out for while he was making it.

On the other hand, some people will just walk up to your table not say a word, pop a picture of a knife and turn around and walk off.

The knife making community is a unique one in my opinion. All you have to do is ask and help is provided. Yet we compete for the same dollars at shows often selling knives that were developed from the same design that is as old as the ages.

 

[John White]

Kevin,

Some random thoughts on the process from someone who has been trying hard for the last few years to learn to make knives.

First off, I certainly hope Tim Hancock doesn't mind folks imitating his work, not to mention half a dozen other makers who've inspired me, or I'll have to go back to looking at a piece of steel and a chunk of wood, and wondering what they'd look like in close proximity.

Seriously, though, as a student of any art,the beginner is unlikely to invent the wheel all on his/her own. If they try, the most likely outcome is something with square corners. As a beginning artist copies the old masters, and practices life drawing, the beginning knifemaker is wise to pick a genre that appeals, and imitate the best, or what appears to that beginner to be the best.

As B.R. Hughes, flanked by folks like Neeley, Fisk, Williams, says to groups of aspiring makers at ABS Hammer-In "Style and Design" lectures,"You don't have a style. Larry Fuegen has a style. Maybe in 20 years, if you've made knives every day, and learned (stolen) from carefully studying other maker's best work, you may develop your own style"

Admitedly, this may be truer for those who, like me, have chosen the "Traditional" genre as work-place, but there are fewer absolutely original designs than some may think. Most makers can list numerous others who have influenced their work, and most makers whose work is instantly identifiable, have been at this business for 20 or 25 years, or longer.

I've been at this for six years now, working every day, thinking about design and studying other and better makers. My knives still often seem to me to be a collection of influences flying in close formation, but I'm hopefull that my study and work are beginning to let me see some of my own possibilities in a piece of steel and a chunk of wood or ivory.

I'm open about learning from others. I've been tickled pink by having a couple makers tell me they've picked up something from me. For anyone who might feel that the creation of great art requires absolute originality, let me just say five words, "Buster Warenski..King Tut Dagger."

These are really just thoughts on the subject. I'd also like to hear from other makers, especially those who, like me, are still in close touch with the learning curve,

John

 

[JParanee]

For one maker to build a knife to be instantly recognized as a well known maker's design is a touchy subject . I am not a maker so my thoughts are only that.

If a maker is deceased and is already being copied by many I guess it is inmaterial.

If he is alive and currently working there is no rule that a person has to reach out and ask his opinion or blessing but a simple call I think would be the proper thing.

For a maker to do one knife as a tribute piece or as an exercise in design is one thing for a maker to offer a direct copy of a well known design and offer it as a regular model is another.

Some makers could care less others do care but in the end a little commen curtsey never hurt anyone.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I have seen new makers be ruined by making the mistake of copying a popular maker's design without first getting permission to do so.

 

[ArtinNC]

I still say, it's not good to make a direct copy of someones knife. But if you make knives there is a lot of similarity to someones work in every knife. Like it has a sharp edge, a guard, a handle, full tang, hidden tang, drop point, trailling point.

So are you saying that a new maker needs to get approval from everyone that has ever made a knife before he makes his first knife?

 

[swilliamf]

I still say, it's not good to make a direct copy of someones knife. But if you make knives there is a lot of similarity to someones work in every knife. Like it has a sharp edge, a guard, a handle, full tang, hidden tang, drop point, trailling point.

So are you saying that a new maker needs to get approval from everyone that has ever made a knife before he makes his first knife?

Now you are just splitting hairs :jerkit: of course that is not what people are saying i think the general consensus is fairly clear. If you were inspired or copied asking and giving credit is the way to go.

 

[John M Cohea]

Good thread Kevin:thumbup:.A couple of years ago I contacted Daniel Winkler via email and ask is permission to occasionally use the patterned copper band technique that he uses pretty often.Within 45 minutes I had a reply, granting me permission to use the technique, as well as any other he has used. He also said that there was no need to ask permission,but he did appreciate the respect I had shown him. I asked for permission because I do respect Daniel and his work, and always have given him credit where it was due.
I am a firm beliver in asking permission for designs and techniques popularized by others,and giving credit where credit is due.It's the right thing to do.