Paying Tribute, Flattery or “You Stole My Design”?

[WalterDavis]

Speaking of Tim Hancock and the refining of other's designs, makers have been building Dogbone Bowies for many years, however IMO Tim has refined the design to the point where the modern Dogbone Bowie has practically become his design. Or at least when many think of Dogbone Bowies Tim's examples come immediately to mind and makers use them as reference for making their Dogbone Bowies.

I think this is where it gets confusing. In this case, it's a design pretty recognizable as coming out of history, and many makers have taken a stabfoot at their versions. Short of a piece-by-piece copy, would you expect a maker to credit Tim? I ask because I wouldn't, but to be fair, I don't run in those circles-it's above my pay grade as both a maker and a collector

However, if I were ever fortunate enough to spend time with a maker that does have such a recognizable style, and I were to make knives similar to theirs in order to further my skills, I'd certainly make sure my buyers knew where my influence came from, whether it was a direct copy or 'inspired by'.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think this is where it gets confusing. In this case, it's a design pretty recognizable as coming out of history, and many makers have taken a stabfoot at their versions. Short of a piece-by-piece copy, would you expect a maker to credit Tim? I ask because I wouldn't, but to be fair, I don't run in those circles-it's above my pay grade as both a maker and a collector

However, if I were ever fortunate enough to spend time with a maker that does have such a recognizable style, and I were to make knives similar to theirs in order to further my skills, I'd certainly make sure my buyers knew where my influence came from, whether it was a direct copy or 'inspired by'.

No, of course not, nor do I believe Tim would expect to be.

I was more making a point where Tim has taken someone else's design and over the years refined it to where it's almost recognized as his.

Tim is one who in my opinion has shared so much over the years. His frame handles, his border cut and grooved spacers/ferrules his innovative damascus and his grinding techniques have been shared with many a maker.

Tim's not alone either, as many makers are an open book when it comes to sharing their experience, knowledge and designs.

 

[WalterDavis]

Thanks, Kevin. That's my thoughts, also.

I find it interesting to be involved with a community that, as a whole, is so incredibly open minded and sharing with one another. Designs, materials, procedures, myths, legends and science, pounded into and ground out of steels and poured into art, and more people are concerned with helping their neighbors succeed than worrying about their own loss. That's why this topic strikes a nerve with me-too many people are willing to go out of their way to help, and I think that any maker that denies the influence that others make on their own art denies the compassion of the community as a whole. In my short time making knives, I can't even imagine the number of years that just the Bladeforum community has shaved off of my learning curve! I think a nod-of -the-hat is the least someone deserves when you borrow from their experience, expertise, or their knowledge:thumbup:

 

[sheathmaker]

More recently, my sheaths are heavilly reflecting Paul Long's work. As with my knives, I make efforts to change them enough that they are not exact copies. But I still refer to them as, "My own hand-sewn Paul Long-style sheaths."

Cheers,

Terry

Terry L. Vandeventer
ABS MS

Terry, I am both flattered and humbled by your statement.

Regarding other maker's work...I WILL NOT make a direct copy even at a specific customer request. There are certain design elements I will not infringe, an example being the Pin Lock that Kenny Rowe uses. I don't know if Kenny invented it, but he does use it and I associate it with him and so I just don't use it.

The other side of the coin is that I don't care who does it or how much.... Anyone is free, with my blessing, to copy anything I do. There are a couple of makers out there who do work so close to mine that I have to look twice to be sure. I'm proud of that, and even more so because I had a hand in their development by teaching and helping.

I've been at this leather stuff since 1951 and I don't even remember what I stole, borrowed, copied or otherwise acquired. I do know in the beginning that MOST came by one of those three mentioned methods and then long years later my own style evolved as a compilation of all of it, and it's still evolving.

It is pleasant though, to receive recognition from my peers. Thanks again, Terry.

PS: One other little point I just thought of...... If a maker is going to attempt to copy a recognized maker's work, he had better be pretty damned good himself to make it fly.

Paul

 

[Mike Carter Custom Knives]

Thanks, Kevin. That's my thoughts, also.

I find it interesting to be involved with a community that, as a whole, is so incredibly open minded and sharing with one another. Designs, materials, procedures, myths, legends and science, pounded into and ground out of steels and poured into art, and more people are concerned with helping their neighbors succeed than worrying about their own loss. That's why this topic strikes a nerve with me-too many people are willing to go out of their way to help, and I think that any maker that denies the influence that others make on their own art denies the compassion of the community as a whole. In my short time making knives, I can't even imagine the number of years that just the Bladeforum community has shaved off of my learning curve! I think a nod-of -the-hat is the least someone deserves when you borrow from their experience, expertise, or their knowledge:thumbup:

That is very true. In many cases, probably most cases, a knifemaker would not mind if you copy something they did, at least on a limited basis. It's just a matter of respect to at least ask.

I also want to point out that my comments about Gil were from my own observations. You will seldom hear Gil complain about anything. But I have seen more than one instance where somebody made a considerable amount of money by directly copying his work and never even offered him a penny of it.

 

[John White]

Kevin has raised a point regarding Dogbone Bowies and Tim Hancock's recognized mastery of the style that is very interesting to me right at this time. We all benefit from Jim Batson's historically accurate Dogbone reproductions, and only a week or so ago, we were treated to Ron Newton's and Jimmy Chen's interpretation here on the forum. Tim, however, has rightly become almost the "Prime Maker" when thinking of the modern Damascus Dogbone.

Next month, I'll be starting my first Dogbone for a client who's been on the list for some time. At Blade, the client laid out his specs; an all Damascus Dogbone with Walrus scales, and Sterling Silver file-worked accents. Sound familiar? The first thing I did was go to Tim's table and tell him about the order. He gave me specific information about the way to handle the difficult domed pins, and suggested I spend time on a close study of the WIP in his new Darom "The Western Bladesmith."

Steve Culver, who was in my '07 MS group, had just done his first Dogbone for the ABS auction, and gave me more tips, including ones he got from Tim when he called Tim before starting his.

Finally, John Perry, who is serious about the historical basis of "Antique Bowies", insisted I pin a photo of the "original inspiration" Loving Kimball Dogbone from the 19th century over my workbench.

I've done my own drawing and "design work", but when I'm finished, this knife had better look a lot like the historical model, and the best work of others, especially Tim Hancock's, or I'd better chunk it in the can and start over. I probably won't do many Dogbones, just because they're so difficult, but trying to measure up to the examples ahead of me is bound to hone my skills.

Working to a recognized style, like this, is certainly the most extreme example of maker influence. We all need to credit those who provide our inspiration, personally, if possible, and refrain from outright "copying." But we makers also draw from many sources, and for me, after acknowledging those who've helped me, the best payback is to , as much as I can, help others coming up on the same path.

John

 

[Erik Fritz]

Kevin has raised a point regarding Dogbone Bowies and Tim Hancock's recognized mastery of the style that is very interesting to me right at this time. We all benefit from Jim Batson's historically accurate Dogbone reproductions, and only a week or so ago, we were treated to Ron Newton's and Jimmy Chen's interpretation here on the forum. Tim, however, has rightly become almost the "Prime Maker" when thinking of the modern Damascus Dogbone.

Next month, I'll be starting my first Dogbone for a client who's been on the list for some time. At Blade, the client laid out his specs; an all Damascus Dogbone with Walrus scales, and Sterling Silver file-worked accents. Sound familiar? The first thing I did was go to Tim's table and tell him about the order. He gave me specific information about the way to handle the difficult domed pins, and suggested I spend time on a close study of the WIP in his new Darom "The Western Bladesmith."

Steve Culver, who was in my '07 MS group, had just done his first Dogbone for the ABS auction, and gave me more tips, including ones he got from Tim when he called Tim before starting his.

Finally, John Perry, who is serious about the historical basis of "Antique Bowies", insisted I pin a photo of the "original inspiration" Loving Kimball Dogbone from the 19th century over my workbench.

I've done my own drawing and "design work", but when I'm finished, this knife had better look a lot like the historical model, and the best work of others, especially Tim Hancock's, or I'd better chunk it in the can and start over. I probably won't do many Dogbones, just because they're so difficult, but trying to measure up to the examples ahead of me is bound to hone my skills.

Working to a recognized style, like this, is certainly the most extreme example of maker influence. We all need to credit those who provide our inspiration, personally, if possible, and refrain from outright "copying." But we makers also draw from many sources, and for me, after acknowledging those who've helped me, the best payback is to , as much as I can, help others coming up on the same path.

John

John that last line is one that i am extremely happy as a younger maker that guys like you follow. and i hope further in my career to do the same.

 

[2knife]

........

 

[Lorien]

the first two custom knives that I ordered from a knife maker were almost blatant ripoffs of a couple of production folding knives.

I liked the lines and shapes quite a lot, but wanted these knives as fixed blades, so I traced them directly on to paper and then modified the proportions and some other things then had them made.

These two ripped-off designs went to Seth along with a design that worked its way from my brain onto paper. I didn't directly copy anything, it was just a design which looked cool to me. Of course, if I knew then what I know now, all three knives would be different, which is why this peculiar interest of ours is so fascinating. Well, at least to us.

Anyway, I'm very happy with these knives and they are prrrecious to me. However, if I deemed they were precious to others and decided to get water cut blanks made and sell them to people, then I think I'd be a scumbag. However, mindful of what I was doing, I asked that Seth not put any pictures of these two ripoff knives on his site, as they were closely patterned from an existing design. In this way, I was able to protect the guy making the knife, who wasn't familiar with either production version, while enjoying for myself the realization of two cool fixed blade knives that I knew would work. Creating something from the ether is not an easy task, it's much easier to have something 3D to start with and go from there.

Guess which design this one's ripped off from?

How bout this one?

And this was my own design;

There are some slightly larger pictures here; http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/album.php?albumid=420

Anyway, I've been reading everyone's posts with great interest and I feel that I have gained more insight into this scene, and I'm liking it more and more.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I would like to address one segment of "copying" a style, and ask a question.
It is my impression there are a lot of makers who are making Scagel style knives. These makers don't often garner a lot of attention here, due to the subject. I think they sometimes pigeonhold themselves by staying within this style, and i think it can detracts from peoples' impression of them as "individuals"- having a distinct style.

As for Question, where is the line between flattery and imitation? Inspiration and interpretation are not the same as a "copy".
To me, most of those "copying" Loveless are not doing anyone a favor- least of all, themselves.

On the other hand, i think "tradition" demands a certain passing-of-the-torch, as a craft. So, there is a dichotomy. (spelling?)

Just my own thoughts about it. And i dont get paid for them, such as Les Robertson would. ..he's a Hairy bugger!
David

Interesting perspective.

 

[ddd]

.........Just my own thoughts about it.
And i dont get paid for them, such as Les Robertson would. ..he's a Hairy bugger!
David

David, isn't this sort of like waking up a sleeping lion?

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[Larrin]

I've noticed that a couple damascus makers will copy patterns from others without identifying the original developer of the pattern. Usually they give it a different name and pass it off as their own.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I've noticed that a couple damascus makers will copy patterns from others without identifying the original developer of the pattern. Usually they give it a different name and pass it off as their own.

That's a good point.
The feather pattern would be a good example of a Damascus which has become very popular recently. Steve Dunn probably initiated it's current popularity when he and Harvey Dean started using it several years ago. I asked Steve at Jerry Fisk's 2006 Micro Show how he developed it and he quickly pointed out that he was not the originator of the feather pattern design and really didn't know who was. Later when he went to the chalk board to share how it's made it quickly became apparent how he had spent quite a bit of time perfecting it to the beautiful pattern it is today.

IMO, Damascus kind of polices itself as far as being copied as no matter how close a process is followed, there will never be two identical Damascus patterns.
That's one reason why I love Damascus so much.

 

[Don Hanson III]

I'm pretty sure Don Fogg originated the feather pattern.

Lot of damascus patterns copied with no credit given. Devin Thomas has been ripped off probably more than any.
Devin's in a fight right now, trying to get his company back

 

[Don Hanson III]

Actually some forms of the feather pattern are much older but Don Fogg was the first I saw do it in modern custom knives.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Actually some forms of the feather pattern are much older but Don Fogg was the first I saw do it in modern custom knives.

That's the impression I got from Steve as well.
I guess many modern patterns are derived from the older, as some modern patterns are variations of the standard ladder pattern.

 

[tom mayo]

there are a number of ways designs and ideas are copied.

Some are done purely by coincidence, two people coming up with the same idea, I have seen it time and time again.

Some people see an idea they like and modify it and make it their own

Some people, like a certain Hawaiian maker who has copied two very well know knifemakers and asked by both of them to stop, just copy other peoples designs, and continue to use them, irregardless of the implications

Its the last catagory that I have a problem with!!!!

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Some people, like a certain Hawaiian maker who has copied two very well know knifemakers and asked by both of them to stop, just copy other peoples designs, and continue to use them, irregardless of the implications

Its the last catagory that I have a problem with!!!!

I agree. Though this makers knives are direct copies of the other makers designs , they sure don't function as well. He was able to copy the look , style and design , but not the mechanics. Darn near dislocate your wrist trying to get them to flip open. :thumbdn:

This is where it gets ugly , copying another makers unique style to the T , being asked to stop , yet continuing on.

 

[Bruce Bump]

I have copied Loveless as close as possible on a couple and never asked permission. I dont think a "legend" like Bob cares. I have heard he is flattered. Besides do you think I can make a better knife than him? Let me tell you what I mean: If there was a Bob Loveless and a Bruce Bump sitting side by side on a table both with $2000 price tags which one would be sold first? Yep the Bruce Bump.... Yeah right! I gotta a long ways to go.

 

[SShepherd]

Wasn't there someone making copies of hartsfields stuff, even after he was asked to stop?