Paypal Policy Updates -

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It looks like Paypal is going to be updating their policies on the ToS. Below is a link and a copy of the modifications they have made. It's good information and might be important to read over if you have not seen it yet. I've highlighted some of the more pertinent sections.

PayPal Policies

Amendments to the PayPal User Agreement
Effective Date: November 18, 2014

We encourage you to carefully review this Policy Update to familiarize yourself with all of the changes that are being made to the PayPal User Agreement. These updates will be posted at least 30 days prior to their effective date. These changes will not apply retroactively and will become effective November 18, 2014. If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms.

Dispute Filing Window
We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days. All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45 days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.” The Sections these changes appear include the Introduction, 3.15, 13.2 and 13.5.


10.1(b)
PayPal’s Seller Protection and Buyer Protection policies may vary from country to country. If you as a seller, sell an item to a buyer from another country, you will be subject to the Buyer and Seller Protection policies applicable to your buyer’s country and required to reimburse PayPal for any payment or refund to your buyer made pursuant to that other country’s policy. We are revising section 11.1 to reflect this.

Liability for Claims under PayPal Purchase Protection. If you are a Seller and PayPal makes a final decision that you lose a Claim filed directly with PayPal, you will be required to reimburse PayPal for your liability. Where you receive payment from a PayPal Account holder in another country and we determine under the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy of that country that the funds received should be returned or reversed, you will be subject to that country’s PayPal Buyer Protection Policy and required to reimburse PayPal for your liability (before receiving payment from a PayPal Account holder in another country, you should review the relevant PayPal Buyer Protection Policies accessible via the “Legal” or “Legal Agreements” footer on most PayPal site pages).Your liability will include the full purchase price of the item plus the original shipping cost (and in some cases you may not receive the item back). You will not receive a refund of your PayPal fees. PayPal Seller protection may cover your liability—see Section 11 (Protection for Sellers) below.

If a buyer files a Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claim for an item they purchased from you, you will generally be required to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. You will not receive a refund of your PayPal fees. Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller protection will not cover your liability.

Section 11.1
PayPal’s Seller Protection and Buyer Protection policies may vary from country to country. If you as a seller, sell an item to a buyer from another country, you will be subject to Buyer and Seller Protection policies applicable to your buyer’s country. We are revising section 11.1 to reflect this.

The revised section 11.1 reads as follows:

11.1 PayPal Seller Protection.
PayPal Seller protection is protection we provide Sellers from Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals that are based on:

Unauthorized Transaction or
Item Not Received
PayPal Seller protection is available for eligible payments from buyers in any country. However, if you sell or market to buyers outside the U.S., please read the PayPal Buyer Protection policy and PayPal Seller Protection policy of the countries in which you are selling (accessible via the “Legal” or “Legal Agreements” footer on most PayPal site pages) as these policies will apply to you as a Payment Recipient or seller.

Section 13.3
We’re extending buyer protection for all buyers to include Item Not Received claims for custom made products. In Section 13.3 we have updated the exclusion clarifying that only Significantly Not As Described Claims for Custom-Made items are ineligible for Buyer Protection. “Significantly Not As Described Issues for Custom Made Items.”

The revised Section 13.3 reads as follows:

13.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Purchase Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

Intangible items, including Digital Goods
Services
Real estate, including residential property
Businesses
Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats
Significantly Not As Described issues for Custom-made items
Travel tickets, including airline flight tickets
Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
Items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought through In-Store Checkout at the retail point of sale
Items that violate eBay’s Prohibited or Restricted Items Policy
Industrial machinery used in manufacturing
Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards
PayPal Direct Payments
Virtual Terminal Payments
Personal Payments



© 1999 - 2014 PayPal
 
Yes, thanks Rev. Seems like it is getting even safer for folks to use the goods option. Also, it is getting a little safer to deal with nefarious custom makers when using the goods option. Now, if only people would use the goods option! Oh, and don't pay in full up front for a custom. Oh, and ship your knife properly and with insurance. But hey, if everyone did these things it would get a little boring around the GBU!
 
Does this apply to transactions just completed, or only transactions from this point on?

*edit*-Sh*t, just read whole post. Nevermind
 
This doesn't sit right with me.
The extension is great for those paying ahead of time for custom work, but what about regular buyers on the exchange...

Why would someone need 180 days to realize an item was not as described? It shouldn't take more than a few minutes really.

I'm wondering what would happen if someone purchased a new knife from a member, used and beat on it for 5 months, then filed a claim stating that the item was received as used...

The counterfeit clause seems good on the surface, but what's stopping a thief from buying a real knife and sending PayPal pictures of a counterfeit version, claiming that's the one they received? Then they get the money back and a free knife.

Makes me nervous about selling to unestablished members. Any thoughts on how sellers can protect themselves?
 
Steve,
When I got the email last week, the same thought crossed my mind regarding the 180 day clause. It sure does leave a great deal of speculation to be drawn. It should include a satisfaction agreement. Once the item is received, you submit electronically that yes, you are satisfied with the item, described accurately, functions as described, etc. something along the lines of eBay.
 
This doesn't sit right with me.
The extension is great for those paying ahead of time for custom work, but what about regular buyers on the exchange...

Why would someone need 180 days to realize an item was not as described? It shouldn't take more than a few minutes really.

I'm wondering what would happen if someone purchased a new knife from a member, used and beat on it for 5 months, then filed a claim stating that the item was received as used...

The counterfeit clause seems good on the surface, but what's stopping a thief from buying a real knife and sending PayPal pictures of a counterfeit version, claiming that's the one they received? Then they get the money back and a free knife.

Makes me nervous about selling to unestablished members. Any thoughts on how sellers can protect themselves?


My thoughts exactly...
 
To protect yourselves, would it help to take photos prior to shipping or request a photo upon arrival?
 
To protect yourselves, would it help to take photos prior to shipping or request a photo upon arrival?

It sure would not hurt matters. Especially if it is a high dollar item. I would also suggest making absolutely sure that all packages follow the Paypal shipping regs to the letter. The last thing anyone wants is to lose a claim because they cheaped out on shipping. In CONUS, use signature confirmation when required and send items with adequate insurance as well.
 
Thanks for the info RevDevil! :thumbup:


This doesn't sit right with me.
The extension is great for those paying ahead of time for custom work, but what about regular buyers on the exchange...

Why would someone need 180 days to realize an item was not as described? It shouldn't take more than a few minutes really.

I'm wondering what would happen if someone purchased a new knife from a member, used and beat on it for 5 months, then filed a claim stating that the item was received as used...

The counterfeit clause seems good on the surface, but what's stopping a thief from buying a real knife and sending PayPal pictures of a counterfeit version, claiming that's the one they received? Then they get the money back and a free knife.

Makes me nervous about selling to unestablished members. Any thoughts on how sellers can protect themselves?


My thoughts exactly as well. Why would it take more than 45 days to realize the item is not in the right condition??? Six months is insanely long!:eek: This new clause is kinda scary for honest sellers on here and just leaves a greater hole for scammers to nudge their way in, whereby encouraging more people to jump on the "paypal sucks" bandwagon.

I think as Paypal members we should all do our part and write PP letters to let them know how we feel. I know I will.
 
This policy makes no sense at all for a seller. I think 45 Days Is Too Long! 6 Months is Nuts!
Any buyer who needs 6 Months to determine if an item is as described is a Fraud.
As a seller you can protect yourself by only taking The Gift Option or Money Order.
The potential Buyer abuse with this is extreme.
So you sell a brand new item, the buyer uses it for 6 Months then claims it is used,not as described "new".
If you read the policy it states "generally" you must take the item back if a buyer files Not As Described up to 6 Months.
As for shipping to another country.... Never..
 
PP is now far more of a problem than the convenience it's supposed to be. I'll also not be giving them my phone number or downloading their "mobile app" at any time at all ever. :rolleyes:
 
As far as shipping overseas, it is a mixed bag. I am hesitant to ship to an unknown member here. But, for people I know through the forums I'll gladly ship, fill out forms, and insure the parcel. It's the one post wonders that have no history to speak of that should always be a primary concern.

PP is now far more of a problem than the convenience it's supposed to be. I'll also not be giving them my phone number or downloading their "mobile app" at any time at all ever. :rolleyes:

No doubt, same here. They need not know what my cell # is, at all. If I need to chat with them, "Don't call me. I'll call you" goes into effect promptly.
 
As far as shipping overseas, it is a mixed bag. I am hesitant to ship to an unknown member here. But, for people I know through the forums I'll gladly ship, fill out forms, and insure the parcel. It's the one post wonders that have no history to speak of that should always be a primary concern.



No doubt, same here. They need not know what my cell # is, at all. If I need to chat with them, "Don't call me. I'll call you" goes into effect promptly.

Shipping over seas can be a problem if you want it to be, I have never had enough problems to be worth shouting about in the many, many years I have been doing it. (the problems I have had were mostly with items going to the US) I know many people just can't be bothered and that is fair enough. It's those that feel that the foreign buyer should accept all responsibility I have issues with, this is where the PP gift problems we see every week here come from. It should be an infractable offence on this forum, IMO, as it shows a level of dishonesty and refusal to accept ones own obligations right off the bat and opens the buyer up to getting skinned from every angle.
Adding in this extended time frame for claims is just rewarding those that want to be a victim and is opening the door to a number of problems for everybody be it buyers or sellers. The bottom line is that more sellers will just insist on PP gift to protect themselves and more people will get thumped on stuff they pay for but never get or they get in bad condidtion. It's a stupid idea but perhaps that's the whole point.....

The thing that bothers me about this new PP set up is the blatant coercion to fill in all those extra little bits of info they want. When I log into PP I get a big reminder on my profile that I'm only 60% there... !!1!1!BBQMONKEYHEADS!1!!... I need to be 100%. :rolleyes:
This blatant info gathering is easy for smart people to see through but the problem is that more and more people are just not that clever and blindly fill in anything they are asked to fill in. Giving those people goals of 100% with a big colour guage to show your progress just makes it even harder for the new generation of spoilt little "win some how and win some how nows" to see through what is actually being asked for.

PP do not need anything other than your bank account info that is connected to your PP account. They do not need your phone number or for you to download apps to you phone. Not to mention the "random" halts and reviews on payments that happen very regularly so that you have to provide info or they check what you're paying for before your payment goes through. This is all adding up to the "big brother" game.

....sorry for all those words. :D
 
This doesn't sit right with me.
The extension is great for those paying ahead of time for custom work, but what about regular buyers on the exchange...

Why would someone need 180 days to realize an item was not as described? It shouldn't take more than a few minutes really.

I'm wondering what would happen if someone purchased a new knife from a member, used and beat on it for 5 months, then filed a claim stating that the item was received as used...

The counterfeit clause seems good on the surface, but what's stopping a thief from buying a real knife and sending PayPal pictures of a counterfeit version, claiming that's the one they received? Then they get the money back and a free knife.

Makes me nervous about selling to unestablished members. Any thoughts on how sellers can protect themselves?

I agree. This allows a lot more time for the "buyers" to scam the seller. I'm all for fair and righteousness and all that...but it has to be fair and even! They do nothing to protect the seller and almost always favor the dispute in the buyers favor. Its becoming easier to screw the seller now. This makes me feel uneasy. 6 months to beat up on something and then complain about it and get it for free.
 
Makes you wonder what their thought process is behind these crappy ideas. I don't see how this helps either PayPal or ebay. Making it easier to get scammed is going to turn away sellers from using both of these services.
 
Buying and selling on forums for nigh on 8 years now. Always make an effort to 'chat' to the seller first. You can almost always tell who is going to be a problem and who isn't. Granted I have had some issues over the years but always managed to work them out. Twice I had serious problems with sellers who just werent responding to queries and both times opening a dispute with PayPal definitely helped to focus their attention. The second issue had to go all the way because the guy just never shipped the item. So in those cases I was quite happy to have the recourse to PayPal's dispute system. BTW neither of those were here on BF but on another knife forum where its free to sell. I avoid the place now.
 
"We’re extending buyer protection for all buyers to include Item Not Received claims for custom made products. In Section 13.3 we have updated the exclusion clarifying that only Significantly Not As Described Claims for Custom-Made items are ineligible for Buyer Protection. “Significantly Not As Described Issues for Custom Made Items.”

Am I understanding this correctly in that PayPal will not offer protection to someone who receives a custom made product (e.g. a custom knife) and finds that there are serious issues with it? For example, I had purchased a ZT 801 to be modified by Will Moon. When I received it, it had a number of issues. Would this be no longer covered?

At first I was excited at the prospect of them extending the the protection window to 180 days but I am now seeing how it could make things even easier for scammers. Eek. Plus, if that change in protection for customs is true, that does not bode well for us.
 
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