Perception and needs

shane45-1911 said:
That is not up to you or I to decide. And concealed carry of weapons in Canada IS ILLEGAL. The court determines if it is a weapon.
I'm done.
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No conversation? Just “I’m done.” ??
Carrying of concealed weapons is ILLEGAL in Canada, no dispute there.
A knife is not classified as a weapon in Canada.
There are prohibited knives, which ARE classified as a weapon. Those are illegal to carry any way.
So if a knife is found in someones pocket here, the interpretation of whether it is a TOOL or a WEAPON is up to the LEO.

If knives in your pocket were ILLEGAL, then every officer that finds one in someones pocket would have to make an arrest under the LAW...which there is none.

If you don’t want to have the conversation, no problem. Stop spreading false narratives on the internet.
 
Sharp & Fiery said:
No conversation? Just “I’m done.” ??
Carrying of concealed weapons is ILLEGAL in Canada, no dispute there.
A knife is not classified as a weapon in Canada.
There are prohibited knives, which ARE classified as a weapon. Those are illegal to carry any way.
So if a knife is found in someones pocket here, the interpretation of whether it is a TOOL or a WEAPON is up to the LEO.

If knives in your pocket were ILLEGAL, then every officer that finds one in someones pocket would have to make an arrest under the LAW...which there is none.

If you don’t want to have the conversation, no problem. Stop spreading false narratives on the internet.
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You obviously don't get it. It is not the instrument that determines if it is a weapon, it is the interpretation of intent that determines if a knife is a weapon.

And if you think no one has ever been arrested in Canada for carrying a non-prohibited knife in their pocket, you are horribly ignorantly mis-informed.
 
Also...there is no charge in Canada for “carrying a concealed” knife. Same as there is no charge for “carrying a concealed screwdriver.”

However, our laws determining whether something is a concealed weapon is based upon intent.

So if the LEO arrests you for “concealed carry of a weapon,” he has determined that your pocket knife is carried with the intent to hurt others. This is based solely on that persons attitude and answers to the LEO’s questions, or actions which my have caused the LEO to stop that person.

If you are carrying a knife in your pocket, and YOU believe you are doing something illegal (which you are not), then your body language will probably put the LEO on alert...then you will most likely get charged with a concealed weapon.
 
shane45-1911 said:
You obviously don't get it. It is not the instrument that determines if it is a weapon, it is the interpretation of intent that determines if a knife is a weapon.

And if you think no one has ever been arrested in Canada for carrying a non-prohibited knife in their pocket, you are horribly ignorantly mis-informed.
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You are twisting my words...

You just proved my point.

Let’s re-iterate: You stated that carrying a concealed knife is illegal, and that someone MAY have a problem “depending on how far the knife sits above the pocket.” Therefore saying that a knife in the pocket is ILLEGAL, which it is not, is misleading.

That is up to what the officer thinks your intent is.

Seriously, man.
 
First thing I’ve learned is perceptions are many times flawed depending on the person with a perception you are dealing with and the culture they were trained in. Law enforcement officers are no different in that regard. And some people extend their perception into something unlawful based on their feelings at that time and their level of paranoia.

The area and culture where I live is very different than a metropolitan area and most people know that many other people carry knives of all kinds. Especially modern edc types with pocket clips and one hand openers are probably the most common. I know many of the law enforcement officers in the area and they have their eye on behavior not necessarily what you have in your pocket or on your hip. Kansas is a constitutional carry state for knives and guns and it is expected that a person will likely have at least a knife.
 
I agree with everything you are saying except your statement that...
shane45-1911 said:
even having a folder with pocket clip MAY be an issue and up to interpretation by the police and courts, depending upon how much of the knife is visible above your pocket.
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Sharp & Fiery said:
Seriously, man.
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Yeah, seriously.

Do you have 30 years experience as a Federal LEO? I DO.

If you are walking down Main Street with a folder clipped in your pocket, you could be arrested. Pocket clip is considered concealed carry. It is going to be up to you to prove why you need a knife on Main Street, and what your intentions are. Your reason better be sound or your knife will be considered a weapon, not a tool.

Fortunately, I was not one of those types of officers.

Don't say it doesn't happen. It did. It does. FACT.
 
shane45-1911 said:
Yeah, seriously.

Do you have 30 years experience as a Federal LEO? I DO. If you are walking down Main Street with a folder clipped in your pocket, you could be arrested. Fortunately, I was not one of those types of officers.

Don't say it doesn't happen. It did. It does. FACT.
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I never said it doesnt happen. I said it is not ILLEGAL. Lol.

As an LEO, you should know that it is only illegal based on the perception of the LEO of whether it is a weapon. Or based on certain cities bylaws.

Thanks for your service, and for your perceptions. I mean that sincerely.
 
shane45-1911 said:
Yeah, seriously.

Do you have 30 years experience as a Federal LEO? I DO.

If you are walking down Main Street with a folder clipped in your pocket, you could be arrested. Pocket clip is considered concealed carry. It is going to be up to you to prove why you need a knife on Main Street, and what your intentions are. Your reason better be sound or your knife will be considered a weapon, not a tool.

Fortunately, I was not one of those types of officers.

Don't say it doesn't happen. It did. It does. FACT.
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You added more to your post...

The real issue in Canada is that based on the Officers perception, an accused is guilty until he proves his innocence.

Should be innocent until the officer which is making the accusation, proves the accused is guilty.
 
Anywho, shane45-1911 shane45-1911 , I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I hold no ill will toward converstions on the internet.

I also have nothing personally against you. :)

It’s good to discuss things, but I would feel terrible if I have affected your day. Please don’t take it personal.

And again, thank you for your service and for your judgement calls. :)
 
Sharp & Fiery said:
Thanks for your service, and for your perceptions. I mean that sincerely.
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Thank you.

I am simply trying to point out the failures of our legal system, and how much is left to discretion, opinion, speculation, paranoia, mis-education and interpretation.

In my PERSONAL experiences, the individual in question is typically what determines whether it is a knife or a tool, not the knife itself - we agree on that point.

A shady character on Main Street with a pocket clip knife showing above the pocket will/could be arrested. It IS concealed carry, and it IS illegal.

A businessman with a machete on his back on Main Street and no history of previous contact with law enforcement will certainly be stopped and questioned (psych evaluation?), but he is not doing anything illegal.

Again, the discretionary interpretation of the "rules" change in a rural setting. For purposes of this discussion, I am talking urban, where many people (LEO's or sheeple) do not see the need for anyone to carry a knife of any size, in any manner of carry, for any reason.
 
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Sharp & Fiery said:
It’s good to discuss things, but I would feel terrible if I have affected your day. Please don’t take it personal.

And again, thank you for your service and for your judgement calls. :)
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And thank you again.

It takes a lot more than healthy discussion to affect my day. :)

I think we have both done a suitable job of illustrating how fallible Canada is with regard to knife laws, with so much open to interpretation and speculation. Don't even get me started on our firearm laws...
 
shane45-1911 said:
Thank you.

I am simply trying to point out the failures of our legal system, and how much is left to discretion, opinion, speculation, paranoia, mis-education and interpretation.

In my PERSONAL experiences, the individual in question is typically what determines whether it is a knife or a tool, not the knife itself - we agree on that point. A shady character with a pocket clip knife showing above the pocket will/could be arrested. IT IS CONCEALED CARRY, and it IS ILLEGAL.

A businessman with a machete on his back and no history of contact with law enforcement contact will certainly be stopped and questioned (psych evaluation?), but he is not doing anything illegal.
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I do agree with almost all of this. :)

Would you concede to this: A knife in the pocket is only considered “concealed carry of a weapon” based on the officer’s discretion on whether it is a tool or a weapon?
 
shane45-1911 said:
And thank you again.

It takes a lot more than healthy discussion to affect my day. :)

I think we have both done a suitable job of illustrating how fallible Canada is with regard to knife laws, with so much open to interpretation and speculation. Don't even get me started on our firearm laws...
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Ya! Haha. Let’s not go there at all. We have already done a bang up job of disrupting the OP’s thread. :(

Somehow I think we would find a way to disagree on agreeing on things related to firearms too. Lol.

Thank you for making the time for the discussion, sir.
 
For those who like to measure social perceptions... Read the subreddits for: Bozeman, Boise, Rapid City, Larmie, and Bend. Essentially the edge of the Anglosphere. These places have developed, for the most part, post Civil War during the era of railroad expansion. They’re very *American* ie kinda split off from yankee culture. More diy, live and let live. Definitely less rules obsessed compared to Midwestern Scandi and German settled areas. Western attitudes towards land acquisition, development, and “protection” are very different from easterners. Read about the water rights era in WY. Eye opening. These places compared to Western Europe? That place is like Mars. WE farmers are more urbane than the most refined (lol) resident of Missoula. Yea, the culture wars in the US are mostly show, but there is an underlying truth to them. People who live in cities live very specialized lives, economies of scale. No one carries, at least they’re smart enough not to announce it. Their food shows up at the press of an app button at this point. Lol. Way different life perspective compared to a rancher out west.
 
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Sharp & Fiery said:
Would you concede to this: A knife in the pocket is only considered “concealed carry of a weapon” based on the officer’s discretion on whether it is a tool or a weapon?
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I concede! :)

It is that discretionary interpretation that makes it illegal. And the Courts tend to support most LEO's interpretation most of the time and support the "illegal" finding of the Police . It's far from ideal, and definitely treads the fine line of innocent until proven guilty, as you have already mentioned.
 
shane45-1911 said:
I concede! :)

It is that discretionary interpretation that makes it illegal. And the Courts tend to support most LEO's interpretation most of the time and support the "illegal" finding of the Police . It's far from ideal, and definitely treads the fine line of innocent until proven guilty, as you have already mentioned.
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Agreed. :)

Have a great Sunday. :)
 
You Canadians are aces with me. Years ago when I was working a case that brought me to Montreal, I had occasion to work with RCMP, QPP, and one other outfit I don't recall at the moment.

RCMP impressed me for having a bar in their station, knew where the strip clubs were and offered to "loan" us a firearm if needed on our operation since we couldn't carry across the border.

I don't remember them frisking me for whatever folder I was carrying.

shane45-1911 shane45-1911 you have a cold one on me if we ever cross paths. My brothers in blue across the border were always accommodating when I had occasion to contact them on a matter.

I agree with Shane that much comes down to perception of the officer, regardless of which side of the border you are on. Lots of folks have problems needlessly due to perception that might have been avoided with a little forethought.
 
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