Perhaps a basic curve discussion?

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Sep 9, 2003
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A bit of confusion in other threads indicates that we have some fresh faces eager for knowledge and I may have shortchanged some folks in my lecture at the Ashokan seminar. The same tired old TTT curve gets drawn at every heat treat lecture so I decided to dispense with it in mine, but there is a reason it is so often used, it is a very valuable visual aid in understanding some of the concepts and transformation products. So I decided to make up for it now and try to help clear things up with a little discussion about some charts (those with more experience, please cut some slack here as my intentions are to keep it basic for any folks who may have not discussed this stuff before, I would rather get the basic concepts across than debate the technical details) :

1095ttt.jpg

This is an I-T diagram for 1095. I-T stands for isothermal transformation, but I prefer to call it by its other name, a “TTT” curve. TTT stands for time-temperature-transformation and that is why I like the name because it describes it all more simply and completely.

Even though TTT curves are what many use to determine heat treatments for their steel, it is worth mentioning that it is based upon holding temperatures, and a more accurate resource for quenching would “Continuous Cooling Diagrams” but C-T diagrams seem to be a real @$$#% to get your hands on, so we use what we got. Each steel has its own distinct curve and will look different than this one for 1095 but I like this one because it so clear to read and explain.

An excellent resource for this information is an “Atlas of Isothermal Transformation Diagrams” do a book search for one and get it, you won’t be sorry.

These diagrams consist of a column of numbers up the left side and a row of numbers along the bottom. The left column refers to the temperature of the steel and the bottom row indicates the time in seconds at that temperature. The first thing you should take note of is that in order to fit the chart on a page the time numbers are logarithmic and pile up very fast.

In the middle of the chart is this series of curved lines that start at the right hand side, come all the way over to the left hand side and then recurve around and down to the bottom. In the area above and to the left of this, which I have taken the liberty of shading pink is austenite. You heat steel to the “critical” temperature and you have transformed things on the inside to austenite.

Now if you chart a line the diagram that corresponds with your rate of cooling, i.e. how many seconds the steel is at a given temperature you can see what changes will happen to your austenite. The different lines in the main curve indicate the amount of ferrite (iron) and cementite (carbon) separate out of your austenite solution. To the right where the field is open is complete transformation of the austenite by diffusion into other products.

The most prominent feature of the curve is the tip that comes closest to the left side of the graph at around 1000F. this is what is often referred to as the pearlite nose. As you cool austenite in simple iron carbon alloys like 1095, it becomes very unstable around 1100-1000F. and wants to revert back to a BCC (body centered cubic) atomic stacking, this promotes diffusion of pearlite which is made up of separated bands of iron and carbon. The closer you are to 1000F, thus the quicker you cool it, the less the separation and the finer will be the pearlite. Slow cooling will take the austenite into the top of the curve ands allow wider separation for coarse pearlite, as you would get in a traditional anneal.

This graph is off from most since it shows more than ¾ of a second to beat the nose and 1095 is quicker that that. But that narrow stretch of austenite to the left at around 1000F is the reason we sorry about cooling 10XX series and W2 so fast; any pearlite made is martensite lost and overall hardness lost. But if you manage to miss it you will notice that the field then opens up again and you will still have austenite all the way down the line around 420F that says Ms. This is when martensite (indicated by green) will begin to form and the steel will actually harden. You will also see a line that says M50, this indicates 50% martensite formed. Since martensite doe not rely on diffusion it does not care about time. If you stop cooling at M50 no more martensite will form until cooling resumes regardless of how long you wait, but you could give the austenite time to stabilize that resist transformation so we want to keep going to a line that is missing on this graph, but is very important, called Mf or the martensite finish line.
 
I thought Mf deserved a separate post because it has been too often neglected and over looked in these discussions, as is evident in the ways many folks describe how they harden and temper. Mf is the point where you have made as much martensite that you can. Before this you have decreasing amounts of austenite making up the difference (and any other products of excess carbide or ferrite you may have). The idea in hardening is to get rid of as much austenite as possible, because if it hangs a round at room temperature it is called retained austenite and is what many folks are sticking their blades in liquid nitrogen to get rid of. If you are getting problematic levels of R.A. in 1095 you really need to forget the nitrogen for now and figure out what you are doing wrong in the quench.

A blade that is more than slightly warm (I prefer cold) from the quench may not have finished this transformation and you could be tempering 85% martensite and 15% austenite, and tempering austenite is just a weird thing to do. Heating 15% austenite will only arrest its conversion until the tempering is done. Then, if you are lucky, you will have 15% martensite that needs tempering again, if you are not lucky the austenite could hang around permanently or possibly break down into ferrite and cementite precipitates, either way you get screwed out of that martensite. Now, my numbers are based on perfect percentages which rarely happen but I think you get the picture.

Higher carbon contents and richer alloying have a tendency to lower Mf. and that why some stainless alloys can benefit from liquid nitrogen even when the heat treat is done well. But do yourself a favor and allow the transformations to finish before messing with them. Marquenching/interrupted quenching techniques go through the martensite range at a gentler pace but it is still steady cooling. Don’t get creative with things hoping to make a super blade until you understand what effects your methods may have. It is false to assume that if stopping at Ms and slow cooling is good then just hanging at Ms and taking a day to cool must be great! And tempering a 300F blade will actually accomplish little to nothing.
 
Kevin,

Thank you so much!!! I, for one, am fairly diligent about accumulating and reading various HT books/references. But I must admit to still being a bit uncomfortable reading TTT diagrams. I think this will help alot.

John
 
I've been poking around BFC for a fair amount of time now, and that's the first time I've read about that chart at a real beginner's, Reader's Digest, kind of level.
That was GREAT, thanks a ton!
Mike
 
Kevin, since you're so good at posting diagrams would you please take a TTT diagram and draw lines showing straight quench, marquench/martemper, modified marquench and austemper ?That would clarify things for some.
 
1095ttt.jpg


They area bit faint but on the chart now you will see colored lines. These lines will represent the quench speeds or methods that mete mentioned. In reality cooling steel always results in curves and not straight lines but let’s not make this more difficult than it needs to be:).

The lime green line represents what you would get if you plunged the steel into water, brine, or an incredibly fast oil all the way down to room temperature. Nothing but austenite until Ms and then rapidly formed martensite.

The mint colored line that shoots off from it represents what you would get if you interrupted the quench and allowed air cooled martensite transformation.

The read line indicates what you get if you use a quench medium that is not up to the task, a sluggish oil or something with horrible vapor jackets. I reality I believe there would be a much deeper penetration into the pearlite nose, but my drawing is not perfect:o . In this situation you get at blade that hardens and forms martensite but lacks the full strength of a blade that didn't have that fine pearlite contaminating those beautiful fields of martensite.

The blue line shows what happens if you try to do an actual martemper/marquench on 1095. The quench medium cools slower because it is heated to around 400F and you skid through the nose before getting to Ms. You will notice how much it approximates the lousy traditional quench (red), and as with that line the result will skate a file and prompt folks to say things like "my 400F. Crisco works fine, Cashen is full of @#$& !"
Well Cashen may indeed be full of @#$&, but just because a blade acts like it hardened doesn't mean you successfully martempered it. A blade corresponding to that line will give some funky Rockwell readings and will not be able to lie to you under the microscope, I find the appearance of those dark blotches in the pretty white martensitic fields repulsive:barf: .

But another steel is different:

l6ttt1.jpg

Due to the alloying and entirely different curve of L6, look what happens if you marquench it using a good salt bath unit. What happened on the 1095 curve is what you get even with the best of equipment due to the limitations of that alloy.

The orange curved line (it was virtually impossible to represent this with a straight line) represents an anneal similar to heating to critical and stuffing it into wood ashes or vermiculite with the results being widely separated coarse pearlite.

mete, I did not add austempering to the chart because to be honest I am so sick of everybody and their brother wanting to run to that over hyped phase before they have even figured out the basics. If you do a search for "bainite" at SFI you would see that one could easily fill a subforum with nothing but asinine questions about austempering. But now I am being a curmudgeon:D , if folks would like to talk about where bainite rests on these charts I would be more than happy to cover that, I just want to make it perfectly clear that there are no magic bullets and if you can't first figure out the basics of a simple quench bainite is not going to save your blades, or even equal them- heck fine pearlite and bainite would REALLY suck!
 
Kevin,
I'm still just as delighted as the day is long that you're taking the time to teach this really important stuff... but I don't see any lines on the charts:confused:

Well, ok, I see one line on the L6 chart below, it's light blue, I believe. But the 1095 chart looks the same as the one in post #1

Is it just my computer screen?
Thanks,
Mike
 
Mike , the lines are faint but they are there.If you can't see them get a new screen........Thanks Kevin, and don't be ashamed of being a curmudgeon ,I wear the label proudly !!
 
Thanks for the information and explanation, Kevin!

Sometimes I'll read something, make the adjustment to my heat-treat and promptly forget why....it's good to get a refresher. Thankfully, I am not off the path. :D
 
Thanks for taking the time to teach us all this Kevin. I've got one question. I started poking around looking for a copy of “Atlas of Isothermal Transformation Diagrams” and found several from varying years. What year range should I be looking for (or doesn't it matter for carbon steels?)

Thanks,

-d
 
Year ?? We're not talking about wine , just steel !! Over the years some of the alloys have been added or removed from the listing of standard alloys but typical carbon and alloy knife steels haven't changed. Just get one of the recent years.
 
Awesome. Just awesome. One question i have is regarding what happens after that Ms line is reached. A full water quench without interruption obviously causes fast Martinsite development while interrupted causes a slower transformation. What exactly is the difference? Will a slow martinsite transform behave differently than a fast one? What if you used a electric kiln to ramp down from Ms temp to room temp over a course of 24 hours?
 
Hey Kev,
Is there any way to get me a copy of the charts above in HUGE format? I'll host the pigs, and that way anyone that wants a bigger copy can just download it!


Dave, I thought that if the time is extended past the curve, it won't actually form martensite, unless the reaching of Ms was done quickly... I thought it would form austenite. Am I completely missing something, or misunderstanding the question (most likely both!)? God, this stuff can be confusing. I have a horrible time applying all of this information, as my visualization skills suck so badly.
 
My question was: If you get the steel to Ms in enough time to form martinsite, what is the affect of slow cooling below the Ms line?

Two cases: One you water quench, no interrupt, and it plunges past the Ms line and transforms to martinsite fast. The other you water quench and interrupt, pulling it out at just below the Ms temp, then ramp slowly down from that temp...any difference?
 
David , we go back to some industrial situations for the answer.With a large piece ,of complex shape, we want to minimize quenching stresses so the piece doesn't warp or crack.A marquench gets the whole piece at a low uniform temperature before the transformation occurs.Then the the cooling is slower than the standard quench .Both these contribute to minimum stresses and minimum chance of cracking or warping.While blades are not complex shapes we have other factors that may add to the stress problem such as decarburization .So marquench can help us with blades.
 
Two cases: One you water quench, no interrupt,
The other you water quench and interrupt,

Your question brings up something for me too.
I like to just harden the cutting edge, I use a O/A torch and warm quenching oil.
I dip the red hot tip in the quenching oil first, count to about 4, then rock the rest of the blade cutting edge down into the oil, keeping the spine out of the oil at all times.

Then after about 6 or 7 seconds, I rock the blade up again with only the tip again in the oil...then I rock the blade back down in the oil. I do this many, many times.

But what I am really doing as a form of "interrupted" quench correct?
 
Year ?? We're not talking about wine , just steel !! Over the years some of the alloys have been added or removed from the listing of standard alloys but typical carbon and alloy knife steels haven't changed. Just get one of the recent years.

Just checking. The volumes I've been finding are from the '20s to the '60s. Wasn't sure how useful the older ones would be.

Thanks,

-d
 
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