Perhaps a basic curve discussion?

Both these contribute to minimum stresses and minimum chance of cracking or warping.While blades are not complex shapes we have other factors that may add to the stress problem such as decarburization .So marquench can help us with blades.


So the predominant advantage of the slower martensite formation is merely a reduction in stresses that may (or may not!) cause warping or cracking... there isn't any other benefit, in regards to end product performance (e.g. increased strength or toughness, or even greater hardness)?
 
My question was: If you get the steel to Ms in enough time to form martinsite, what is the affect of slow cooling below the Ms line?

Two cases: One you water quench, no interrupt, and it plunges past the Ms line and transforms to martinsite fast. The other you water quench and interrupt, pulling it out at just below the Ms temp, then ramp slowly down from that temp...any difference?

THe answers to Davids question and what Mr. Purple addresses as well is covered in detail on page 3 of this recent thread (the one that spawned this one):http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439624&page=3

I believe I will just refer back to it instead of typing it all over again.
 
Your question brings up something for me too.
I like to just harden the cutting edge, I use a O/A torch and warm quenching oil.
I dip the red hot tip in the quenching oil first, count to about 4, then rock the rest of the blade cutting edge down into the oil, keeping the spine out of the oil at all times.

Then after about 6 or 7 seconds, I rock the blade up again with only the tip again in the oil...then I rock the blade back down in the oil. I do this many, many times.

But what I am really doing as a form of "interrupted" quench correct?

Incorrect. This is edge quenching and has lots of issues that cause it to fall short of interrupted quenching and far, far short of marquenching. The entire blade needs to be brought to Ms and then the cooling is decelerated, only once, down to ambient. I strongly suggest that these techiques not be done with edge quenching due to the huge temperature variations in the blade.
 
Kevin.....I have an obvious question that I feel silly for not asking before this:D Once you do a full interrupted quench, do you "soft draw" the back of the blade, riccaso and tang or just temper and rock on?
 
You? Or me? I just rock on in high strengh martensitic bliss, others may want to play with the yield points a little more and do some differential tempering. Regardless of what you do a complete tempering is in order as soon as the hardening is done. Get that entire blade stabilized at the termpering temperature, then come back later and draw back the spine and riccasso. Oh, wait, I do draw back the ricasso and tang area in order to facilitate hand and guard fitting ang finishing.
 
Do you folks think we could use a further discussion involving the heats before the hardening what would be more easily understood on the Fe/FeC3 equilibrium diagram?
 
I think that would be most excellent, Mr. Cashen. Thank you.
 
man...I feel like a sponge...soaking this all up...but almost overflowed! :o
 
THe answers to Davids question and what Mr. Purple addresses as well is covered in detail on page 3 of this recent thread (the one that spawned this one):http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439624&page=3

I believe I will just refer back to it instead of typing it all over again.



...all right. It seems that all I keep doing is being that knucklehead kid asking the same question over and over again, while the rest of the class has moved on! I have NO clue how I managed to miss your perfect explanation of the entire process in the thread you linked, but I did. Anyhow, I found it, read it, and get it.

It's a small miracle I've managed to survive this long, with observation skills as lacking as mine!:confused:

My apologies once again, Kevin. Your patience has truly been tested with my 'thickness of skull', and I thank you for it.

I concur with the other Mick (tip o' the hat to Mr. Fitzgerald:D )... keep the ball rolling! I'll try to pay more attention:) .
 
Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad, Matt Gregory.

Forgive yerself that you don't learn everything the first time. ;) Few do, though they'd tell you otherwise.

PS, you might be wondering what the Gaelic means..."A light heart lives longest"
And, no, I don't speak Gaelic. I just knew where to find it. :)
 
...all right. It seems that all I keep doing is being that knucklehead kid asking the same question over and over again, while the rest of the class has moved on! I have NO clue how I managed to miss your perfect explanation of the entire process in the thread you linked, but I did. Anyhow, I found it, read it, and get it....

I know how you missed it, it is tucked between a series of 2 page rants on all kinds of off topic social commentary by this weird bladesmith from Michigan;) .
 
Tá fáilte romhat, Mr Cashen!

You speak Gaelic, Kevin? Many years ago, I signed up three years running for a Gaelic course at the community college but they never had enough interested folk to run the class. Sure would have enjoyed that.
 
Please do carry on O Technical Interpritors!! [in english,preferably]. After 5 years of playing in the fire, this tech stuff means a lot more now than the first 4 or 5 times I read it in books. And you make a great teacher,Kevin. Please keep us up to date on Ashokane dates as I do plan to be there.

Don't feel bad,Mr Purple, I read this stuff, think about it for a day or two and reread it all again. Every time I read it I see stuff I missed the last time. Lots of info to wrap our frostbit n.y. brains around. Slowly it sinks in and makes sense. Good stuff, thanks to all!!
 
Tá fáilte romhat, Mr Cashen!

You speak Gaelic, Kevin? Many years ago, I signed up three years running for a Gaelic course at the community college but they never had enough interested folk to run the class. Sure would have enjoyed that.

I am sure no more than you, Fitzo. But let's try some technical speak, which is Greek to too many.

Now…
The TTT curve is for determining phases formed at certain temperatures while cooling, and each alloy has its own unique curve, making them much more applicable to heat treating uses. The Fe/Fe3C (iron/carbon) equilibrium diagram is a more general phase diagram that covers the concept of simple iron/carbon alloys, making it less useful in direct application to heat treating, but quite invaluable in understanding the basic concepts of phases when heating iron carbide systems. In short the graph below is applicable to a pure iron carbon system and any alloying or other elements will move some of the lines in significant ways:
fefe3c.jpg


On this chart the left hand side has a column of numbers that represent the temperature, along the bottom is a row of numbers that show the carbon content in the mix. You will notice that there is an entire wide area to the right of 2% carbon with many more features to it. I will not delve into this because the only area of the chart that pertains to knifemaking steels rests to the left, or less than, 2%; the area in excess of this deals with cast irons more than steel.

In the middle if the steel range you will see .8% with a dotted line shooting straight up from it, this is a very significant line and it is called the eutectoid. Note- “toid”, not “tic” please do not make the mistake of calling it the “eutectic” there is a eutectic on the chart but it rests far in the cast iron range, don’t feel bad about the confusion I have seen folks with some pretty impressive letters beside their name make this error. The eutectoid is the point where upon cooling the iron and carbon ration is at just the right mix that pure pearlite will be made with no leftover carbon or iron (cementite or ferrite). But also upon heating there will be no leftovers to dissolve so it will be the easiest to convert to austenite.

Steels to the left of this line all called hypoeuctoid and have extra ferrite (iron), while steels to the right of this line have leftover cementite (carbon) and are called hypereutectoid. The leftovers are described as proeutectoid, so if you anneal a piece of 1095 it will be mostly pearlite with proeutectoid cementite mixed in.

Now for the heat, the chart assumes that you have a pearlitic (annealed) steel, it is after all simple carbon steel, on heating everything is pearlite until you reach the first line at around 1335F. This is called A1 (if you are heating it is called Ac1, if cooling it is called Ar1), it is at this temperature that the shift from BCC atomic stacking to FCC stacking begins to occur. Since FCC has more spaces between the iron atoms it facilitates the carbon atoms movement much better and allows the iron to dissolve the carbon to form austenite. So A1 is the line that separates the pearlite field from the zone consisting of iron or carbon mixed with varying degrees of austenite.

The next line is A2, it designates the Currie point for steel (1414F), this gets a bit confusing but it is the point at which steel loses magnetism and, contrary to what virtually 95% of all bladesmiths believe, has nothing to do with determining when a steel has reached proper solution. Not being as keen on physics as I am on metallurgy, the best I gather is that the Currie point is the result of the change in the spin of the electrons in the iron atom shell resulting from the allotropic (bcc to fcc) shift. When enough of the stacking has shifted to bring about this differing electron spin ferromagnetism will begin to fade and thus the Currie point. So it is not heavily affected by alloying or carbon content, and thus is not at all fool proof in determining the proper temperature of most alloys beyond simple iron carbon. It would be great for a steel that had at hardening temperature of 1400F but lousy for one that needs 1525F (like 5160).

I am getting large here so I will cover more in another post.
 
The next line will be A3 which is the diagonal line that curves up from 1333F with .83% Carbon to pure iron at 1670F, it delineates the zone where there are varying degrees of ferrite mixed with increasing austenite. It will be proeutectoid ferrite (iron) not cementite, since it rests to the left of the eutectoid point. Once you cross the A3 line you will have all the proeutectoid products dissolved and have complete austenite.

To the right of the eutectoid, there is similar diagonal line called Acm, this is where you will have all the proeutectoid cementite (carbon) dissolved into austenite in a hypereutectoid steel. The more proeutectoid ferrite you have the higher the temperature to dissolve is all, the more proeutectoid cementite you have the higher the temperature to dissolve it all, with the eutectoid requiring the least heat and time to do the same, that is why 1080 and 1084 make great steels for the guy with just a forge to heat with.

The problems start when you look at cooling versus heating, since the lines are never exactly in the same place, i.e. Ar1 is lower in temperature than Ac1 and A1 is just the line we use to imagine ideal equilibrium circumstances. Also rate of heating or cooling will affect these points as well. Heating very fast will shift things upward and very rapid cooling can shift things so far downward that it can get as low as 400F and cause hardening.

At this point the discussion could go in over 1000 different directions so I think I will let the questions and input of others determine where we go.
 
I am sure no more than you, Fitzo.

I'm sure no less, either. Difficult to know less than nothing of a language. :o

In the post with the chart, for accuracy you might want to adjust the juxtaposition of "left" and "right" in the paragraph that begins with "On this chart....".

Thank you for this topic.
 
I'm sure no less, either. Difficult to know less than nothing of a language. :o

In the post with the chart, for accuracy you might want to adjust the juxtaposition of "left" and "right" in the paragraph that begins with "On this chart....".

Thank you for this topic.

Got it! Thank you very much, it has been fixed. When just typing away simple things such as left and right can elude you sometimes.
 
The fact that many 'smiths quench right at non-magnetic thus means there is typically some percentage of pearlite remaining undissolved. It is typically oversimplified that subsequent trips to non-magnetic will "austenitize more pearlite" each time and thus the steel will creep towards more martensite with multiple quenches.

Does all of the existing maretensite re-dissolve, plus a little more pearlite? None of the martensite? What fraction? How does alloy content affect this?

BTW, this is not an attempt to promote or denigrate multiple quenching. It is, instead, an attempt to create discussion of what happens during the process.:)
 
I would repeat that it is an iron/carbon diagram with no other elements, and it is an 'equilibrium' diagram which we don't see in the real world. However it's a good diagram to give you understanding of the processes involved in transformation....Fitzo, the attempt to refine the grain is done by multiple hardening .We introduce the subject of nucleation of new grains. An annealed pearlite structure will have fewer nucleation sites there for fewer [and larger ]grains.If we transform the structure to martensite there will be more nucleation sites because of higher energy states in the martensite and more sites such as dislocations to start new grains when reheated. With smaller austenite grains there are more nucleation sites for martensite on the next hardening !! Because of other considerations three hardenings are about all that is practical....You asked for it , you're going to get it !!
 
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