Period Correct Reenactment Knives

[G L Drew]

I have been asked several times to make knives for the reenactment folks but I have a tough time making them "period correct" with my equipment; no antique sandstone grinding wheel, brain tanned leather or linen thread for the sheath. Some guys even want the knife to be beat up, rusted and dragged behind a horse to make it look very old. (weren't there any new knives in 1776?) Has anybody here had experience with this type of knife who could make some suggestions?
Here is a photo of a knife that was rejected by a customer because it "just looks too modern".

 

[TLR]

I just talked to my uncle (who is a pretty serious civil war reenactor in Indiana) about what he would want in a knife to use during his reenacting and asked him to get me some pictures of period knives that he liked. Most that he liked were either daggers or had a false edge. None of them looked like what I would have thought a period knife would look like. I think in my head I'm picturing more revolutionary war then civil war era knives. He told me that most serious reenactors don't want bowies even though you see many of the old civil war photos had bowies in them. Apparently most were props even back then.

I don't know that that helps much but it is what I got back in asking him in December. Unfortunately what I see and hear is that they know what they don't like more then they know what they do like and it's probably going to vary a lot form person to person. There seems to be no great resource of period knives from that era as they weren't really thought of as anything more then a somewhat disposable tool.

If anybody has a good eresource with pictures of period knives I'd love to know about it.

 

[TLR]

By the way, I love the knife. The only thing remotely "modern" to my eye may be the handle. What constituted modern to him?

Editted to add: I just realized that your guy was a revolutionary war reenactor? When I think revolutionary war I think bayonets, patch knives and knives that were carried for woods knives which weren't much more then a rustic thin bladed butcher knife.

 

[LRB]

For 18th c. avoid brass. Avoid guards. Never use pin/rivets other than steel/iron. Distinct ricassos and plunge grinds would be rare to nonexistant. The most common knives carried and used were imported butcher types and scalpers. Smith made knives did exist, but were relatively kinda rare in comparison. The knife you show is quite modern. Guards are rarely found on any but daggers, and then most are iron. Full tangs are normally tapered. Stick tangs normally pinned with iron rivet, or go through and peened over a plate or washer, or just jammed into the grip. Pewter mounts are found less often than what you will see at a modern event or rendezvous. More a 19th c. thing. We that make 18th c. types often break some of the rules for the sake of sales and creativity, but that needs to be keep to a minimum. Doing all PC work tends to stifle artistic expression to a degree. As for rough finishes, that is mostly a reenactorism. Most work was at least filed clean. Rough work was considered the mark of an amatuer smith. Aged work. Yes. It is very popular in these circles as most simply do not want the brand new look, but this can be done without going overboard. One can make the item appear used rather than freshly excavated from the ground.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

What I have encountered is they want the style and materials to be of the period. Wooden handles from hickory, ash, persimmon, etc. Plain carbon steel blades with simple grinds. Brass or steel rivets. Steel, brass, or wrought iron guards. Finish by hand to a medium surface. Some like the knife to look "rustic" with forge scale and pitting, but others like it to look as if it was a museum piece. All wanted it functional. As far as manufacture, they don't mind modern equipment, and procedures, but prefer forged over ground. Sheaths have been plain leather with Fiebing's antique stain. I used waxed saddle thread for stitching. After the sheath was done, it was heavily oiled with Neatsfoot oil.

 

[Cicatriz]

I was heavily involved in a reenactment group for many years. We reenacted true Texas Ranger history from 1874 through 1898(about).
Myself and two others were tasked with keeping our members gear as close to original as possible.
We used as many resources as we could find, including;
Old pictures.
Descriptions in old letters, newspapers or journals.
Museums.

While I was dealing more with post civil war items and not revolutionary war items I do understand the frustration.
At many events there were 1776 era reenactors also. Most of them just carried the cheapest thing they could find(sad really)

From what I have seen and studied of the revolutionary war the soldiers carried what they already had and used before the war started.
Plain user knives that were reliable.


This sounds like a fun challenge to me!
Authentically ugly...

Brain tanned leather is available or a look alike can be done. I would think a waxed leather would be closer though...
Waxed linen thread is available.

Antiquing a tool. It pains me sometimes, but if the customer is paying for making something look ratty, then why not?

Could you use a coarser grind to look like an antique sandstone grinder? Or just rough it up a bit after grinding?
I wonder what kind of grinds were used then. Or were they all different?

I'm getting excited about the idea and I'm not even involved...

 

[tryppyr]

Interesting thread. It is a refreshing departure from the "how to make knives better/prettier" threads.

 

[LRB]

18th c. smith made blades were commonly draw filed, and most had a slight convex in cross section, or were fairly flat. The imported butchers, scalpers, and common knives were finished by grinding on stones of 4 to 6 feet in diameter and a few feet thick in some cases. It was common that people grinding blades rented time on the stones and were paid by the piece. It was very dangerous work, for a stone could break at any time and crush the workman. As far as clothing, very little leather. Leather is hot, a poor insulator, and when wet is cold and clammy taking a long time to dry. Mostly for foot wear and sometimes for leggings. Leather breeches, knee breeches, were fairly common, but most often were tailor made from deer, fish oil tanned in Europe of hides from America. The Daniel Boone TV image is completely false, and a joke among 18th c. reenactors. Oh, another thing on knives. 18th c. reeactors find their "ugly" knives to be beautiful when correctly made to 18th c. specs. PC is an aquired taste in beauty, and not as easily done as just making things ugly and worn. It is an art unto itself requireing a bounty of knowledge to pull off successfully.

 

[G L Drew]

Wow, lots of strong opinions about these knives....that's what makes it fun. I find a very fine line between making a knife look authentically old and just making something crude. I am sure that there were good bladesmiths and bad 200 to300 years ago; some making very attractive knives and some building basic utility stuff. As many styles as there were blacksmiths. Maybe that is why it is so difficult to replicate a knife to meet someone's expectations.

 

[Cicatriz]

I hope nobody took my comments "authentically ugly" or "ratty" as something bad.
It is not bad at all, but a hard to accomplish, much sought after achievement.
Being well used and worn looking just means that the knife is a good one that the user can not let go of.
I agree completely that making a new knife look antique is an art form.
In the past I've done some of that type work and it's not easy to make something new look hand worn, used but well loved.
Just my $.02 worth anyway...

 

[Wolf Creek Forge]

We do a lot of hawks for reenactors..Wrap and weld..This is how Phillip taught me to make period correct pieces..Use period correct tools :grumpy:..As you can guess, I dont make may of them..

 

[Rick Marchand]

I have made period pieces for historical sites, reenactors and regular customers. They fall into three categories. (that I just made up)

Realtime, Period Correct - These are for the true reenactors and museum reproduction. They don't want aged, etched, rustic looking blades. They want well kept gear in a period style... as it truly was.
Great Great Grampa's Treasure Chest, Period Correct - These pieces look like they've been buried for a hundred years. Some reenactors want this(I don't get it) and historical sites use these in place of actual artifacts or to set up recreated displays.
I Don't Really Care, It Just Think It Looks Cool, Period Correct - Admittedly these are my favorite because they give more freedom. With this group, pretty much anything goes as long as it looks old and rustic.

 

[Dixieblade57]

I have been asked several times to make knives for the reenactment folks but I have a tough time making them "period correct" with my equipment; no antique sandstone grinding wheel, brain tanned leather or linen thread for the sheath. Some guys even want the knife to be beat up, rusted and dragged behind a horse to make it look very old. (weren't there any new knives in 1776?) Has anybody here had experience with this type of knife who could make some suggestions?
Here is a photo of a knife that was rejected by a customer because it "just looks too modern".

View attachment 329013View attachment 329014

One of the most knowledgeable people about this subject I know has already replied to this thread, LRB can quote it to you forwards and backwards and without the book to look at!

Problem is when you say Period Correct or (PC), a lot has to do with what period you are talking about!

However one thing remains consistent from the late 1700's to the mid or even to the later 1800's in some cases. The knives were pretty much [plain Jane/B]. They were often what folks had at home, variations of the common butcher knife and some that looked like, what would be thought of as a modern day chef's knife! They were often designed for trade with the Indians once westward expansion began and the trappers and those headed west but one thing was common among them they were designed for real use. Plain and boring. Also as LRB stated most were constructed with only certain materials, what would have been common to the day!

I am not exactly sure which period reenactment your client was involved in but one thing that stands out on your knife is the handle, it is definitely a modern design, and as LRB stated few knives back then had guards. The forged look is OK but even the shape of the blade doesn't look much like that period. Like I said they were often plain and boring. Not to say that is how your knife looks, but to a true reenactor that would what would make it not correct.

Goggle trade knives. scalper knives, westward expansion knives from Sheffield and take a look at some of the knives. If they are truly looking for a PC knife this handle style was the thing back then.

To make knives that stay true to the period is a limited clientele. I build some for this period but even having said that I sometimes have to take a few liberties, and sometimes I just have to say this is my version of such a knife, because I know that what the average guy wants is not what is truly PC. And some will not believe that is truly what knives looked like back then as they have Hollywood's version burned into their brain and they rarely got it right!
EDITED:
I just read Rick's post and his divisions of the reenactors is just about spot on, (what I was trying to say in my ramblings)!

 

[GHEzell]

Goggle trade knives. scalper knives, westward expansion knives from Sheffield and take a look at some of the knives. If they are truly looking for a PC knife this handle style was the thing back then.

Spot on. Study the originals.

 

[liamstrain]

Many revolutionary through civil war soldiers would have carried a basic single blade folding knife.

And and maybe a trade knife on their belt.

 

[sunshadow]

I make reenactor knives for 10th-16th century authenticity high customers. You want to get the look right use the period hammers etc and research the period materials. For that period look at LRB's work, period knives do not have to be ugly. What you have is a fantasy piece with no basis in period. There are lots of books that have great info on historical blades, spend a little time at Barnes And Noble

-Page

 

[G L Drew]

So, the rifles that reenactors carry are a work of art with inlays and decorative fixtures but their knives have to be crude and "plain Jane"??

 

[LRB]

Spot on. Study the originals.

Well, that can be a problem for 18th c. unless you are looking for trade knives or scalpers. One can find many earlier knives, and many later knives, but finding documentable 18th c. knives is like looking for water in the Sahara desert. Here and there, but not much available. Especially American blades, but Euro knives are also pretty sparse for this century, other than cheap factory made types. There are two types of PC reenactors in Ricks first group. There are first the the close enough types that are satisfied with pretty correct basic patterns, clothing and gear, and then the hard core types that will have nothing in their clothing and gear that they cannot document, and many of these will carry reference papers on their person to show if asked. Some of these guys can be pretty elitest in their attitudes, but I suppose may be a necessary evil in order to advance historical knowledge, which they have done well over the years. There are two well known books on early American, and some Euro knives, but very few documentable 18th c. knives are found in either. I doubt you would find much, if anything, at Barnes & Nobles. At least none that aren't already pictured elsewhere. Documentable being the key word in this case.

 

[LRB]

So, the rifles that reenactors carry are a work of art with inlays and decorative fixtures but their knives have to be crude and "plain Jane"??

Pretty much plain Jane, but not necessarily crude. Even the cheap imported trade knives were finished to guild standards that may be simple, but still made to a set standard. Not all the guns were highly decorated, and few inlays were used on American guns until into the 19th c. Some amount of carving decoration was expected on rifles, and labor was very cheap. The really fancy rifles/guns, were usually owned by only the wealthy, and then there were the longhunters who during the 1760's and early '70's made a lot of money from deer hides. Those who survived. Most were very rich by the standards of the time. They could easily afford fancy, and apparently did, but knives were just a tool for most. Wear it out, throw it away, buy another. Most carried working knives. Butchers and scalpers.

 

[jll346]

If not acceptable, it is still a bad ass knife!! Very nice work reguardless.