Philosophy of expensive large thick chopper?

[sideways]

It's all just screwing around in the woods anyway... so maybe we shouldn't take it too seriously.

I agree that there are many ways to skin a cat and that if it comes down to which knife you have on you, you are probably already going to die.

For me.... I'm always going to be weight limited (by choice) when off trail so I'd rather put the weight of a big chopper into boosting the rest of my system. Shelter, food, water etc.

Also since I'm mostly screwing around on my own property and the bushcrafty stuff I'm doing looks a lot like work I'm going to be using the most efficient tools I can get my hands on. Choppers are hopelessly slow IMHO. I do a lot of work with a chainsaw, brush saws, brush type mowers and if it's a big job the guy with the forestry harvester gets a call. The off cuts of that work end up as firewood. I go through a lot of wood, in a lot of fireplaces, so that stuff gets processed with a hydraulic splitter and hardened circular saw.... the easiest thing for me when I want an open fire is to put a bucket of cut and dried wood from the wood store in the car on the way out. Cheating, I know.

 

[stabman]

It's all just screwing around in the woods anyway... so maybe we shouldn't take it too seriously.

I agree that there are many ways to skin a cat and that if it comes down to which knife you have on you, you are probably already going to die.

For me.... I'm always going to be weight limited (by choice) when off trail so I'd rather put the weight of a big chopper into boosting the rest of my system. Shelter, food, water etc.

Also since I'm mostly screwing around on my own property and the bushcrafty stuff I'm doing looks a lot like work I'm going to be using the most efficient tools I can get my hands on. Choppers are hopelessly slow IMHO. I do a lot of work with a chainsaw, brush saws, brush type mowers and if it's a big job the guy with the forestry harvester gets a call. The off cuts of that work end up as firewood. I go through a lot of wood, in a lot of fireplaces, so that stuff gets processed with a hydraulic splitter and hardened circular saw.... the easiest thing for me when I want an open fire is to put a bucket of cut and dried wood from the wood store in the car on the way out. Cheating, I know.

When I got up to the cabin with my friends, a chainsaw was way quicker to cut things to length.
But although it was a relatively small one, I would not have wanted to lug it a few miles through the woods.

 

[sideways]

What are friends for....

 

[stabman]

What are friends for....

I like how you think!

 

[22-rimfire]

They all are great; big, small, middlin'..... One thing you don't see much are folks with traditional slip joints chopping down trees. They are much smarter than many of us; they use chain saws.

 

[stabman]

One thing you don't see much are folks with traditional slip joints chopping down trees. They are much smarter than many of us; they use chain saws.

Or they just stay at home.
Which many would argue is smarter, as they won't get bit by mosquitoes and ticks, nor will they have to crap while crouched in the woods.

 

[Spey]

What i wanna know is why more big choppers aren't made from metals like D2, and CPM3V?

I get they are harder to field sharpen but if they are harder to damage then less field sharpening is needed right? Or am I missing some other important metallurgy reason?

I don't really think it's related to difficulty in field sharpening as much as I think that there are diminishing returns with some steels related to the blades steel properties & geometry becoming thicker by design (more weight, toughness, and strength). Myself & others have posted some information that may shed some light on this is a thread related to CPM3V questions related to potential use in tomahawks.

If interested here's a link to that thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1367456-tomahawk-from-cpm3v/page2
In post #27 I explain more related to my comments above, where I think a fair amount may apply to your specific question about big choppers.

hOpefully something of use here ;-)

 

[RayseM]

It's all just screwing around in the woods anyway... so maybe we shouldn't take it too seriously.

I agree that there are many ways to skin a cat and that if it comes down to which knife you have on you, you are probably already going to die.

For me.... I'm always going to be weight limited (by choice) when off trail so I'd rather put the weight of a big chopper into boosting the rest of my system. Shelter, food, water etc.

Also since I'm mostly screwing around on my own property and the bushcrafty stuff I'm doing looks a lot like work I'm going to be using the most efficient tools I can get my hands on. Choppers are hopelessly slow IMHO. I do a lot of work with a chainsaw, brush saws, brush type mowers and if it's a big job the guy with the forestry harvester gets a call. The off cuts of that work end up as firewood. I go through a lot of wood, in a lot of fireplaces, so that stuff gets processed with a hydraulic splitter and hardened circular saw.... the easiest thing for me when I want an open fire is to put a bucket of cut and dried wood from the wood store in the car on the way out. Cheating, I know.

When I do drive in camping - State Parks type stuff - I fill a duffle bag with wood cut offs from my cabinet shop - along with an armful of split wood stove wood. Can build a fire immediately upon coming into the campsite Authorities frown on carrying in cord wood from other parts of the state now (moving bugs around) but the duffle bag of kindling is still a treasure trove :thumbup:. Why not?

 

[tatalley10]

I don't really think it's related to difficulty in field sharpening as much as I think that there are diminishing returns with some steels related to the blades steel properties & geometry becoming thicker by design (more weight, toughness, and strength). Myself & others have posted some information that may shed some light on this is a thread related to CPM3V questions related to potential use in tomahawks.

If interested here's a link to that thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1367456-tomahawk-from-cpm3v/page2
In post #27 I explain more related to my comments above, where I think a fair amount may apply to your specific question about big choppers.

hOpefully something of use here ;-)

Nice read. Thanks for the info.

Tell me more about blade geometry with respect to cpm3v and hudson bay knife design? Full flat grind with what secondary bevel would give me the best bang for my buck?

 

[Spey]

Nice read. Thanks for the info.

Tell me more about blade geometry with respect to cpm3v and hudson bay knife design? Full flat grind with what secondary bevel would give me the best bang for my buck?

IMHO that would lead back to some of what I posted already.

Start with identifying the specifics of the intended use you have for the knife/tool. List the needs (things you would be unwilling to sacrifice), then the wants (things you would/could compromise on), then last your likes. This goes for blade and handle as they relate to geometry/performance and ergonomics.

Then speak with someone knowledgeable in design geometry for the general design you think you want. Make sure you each understand the "terms" used. Primary bevel and secondary bevel mean different things to different folks (Murray Carter example). To me a full-flat-grind could mean no secondary, what some might call a zero-grind. Just make sure both are in the same page with terms used.

From there I would start with the finished cutting edge, thickness behind the edge, then overall height of the blade and weight. This will the determine the primary bevel angle of the blade (provided you still want full height flat ground primary). Somewhere overall length, cutting length, spine shape, handle shape & profile need to be determined.

From there steel selection, heat treatment and tempering selections can be made/suggested.

IMHO starting out selecting a knife design and steel selection is like putting cart b4 the horse. Yes, very common practise in the knife community I realize. I would counter with that is why we have sooooo many grossly overbuilt knives that while the average user believes they are awesome because they cut, they chop, etc. but are really serious under-performers compared to what they could have been.

A perhaps simpler way might be to buy an inexpensive example of what you think you want. Spend some quality time with it doing the things you expect it to do. Adjust the geometry of the blade to do things you want to do better. Write down a list of likes/dislikes & improvements you think you'd like that are beyond your modification capabilities. Then discuss your findings with a maker that can design a keeper that is all your own.

I struggle with these things myself and have learned for example that when I search Hudson Bay Knife that it's easy to look at all the pic's and say cool, I want one. Then all of a sudden I begin to notice all kinds of various differences and start wondering how each difference would affect performance of various tasks. There's a huge amount of various makers influences on what is current being produced (and that's a great thing for the person that is able to define the simple list of needs/unwilling to sacrifice, wants, likes of a design.

 

[trevitrace]

Well put, Spey. :thumbup:

 

[sideways]

When I do drive in camping - State Parks type stuff - I fill a duffle bag with wood cut offs from my cabinet shop - along with an armful of split wood stove wood. Can build a fire immediately upon coming into the campsite Authorities frown on carrying in cord wood from other parts of the state now (moving bugs around) but the duffle bag of kindling is still a treasure trove :thumbup:. Why not?

That's a very good point. I had not considered bugs. If you are travelling long distances, i.e. over bug zones, it would be dickish not to consider the risk of spreading pests. You can do a lot of damage when you introduce a new species to an area. :thumbup:

 

[tatalley10]

IMHO that would lead back to some of what I posted already.

Start with identifying the specifics of the intended use you have for the knife/tool. List the needs (things you would be unwilling to sacrifice), then the wants (things you would/could compromise on), then last your likes. This goes for blade and handle as they relate to geometry/performance and ergonomics.

Then speak with someone knowledgeable in design geometry for the general design you think you want. Make sure you each understand the "terms" used. Primary bevel and secondary bevel mean different things to different folks (Murray Carter example). To me a full-flat-grind could mean no secondary, what some might call a zero-grind. Just make sure both are in the same page with terms used.

From there I would start with the finished cutting edge, thickness behind the edge, then overall height of the blade and weight. This will the determine the primary bevel angle of the blade (provided you still want full height flat ground primary). Somewhere overall length, cutting length, spine shape, handle shape & profile need to be determined.

From there steel selection, heat treatment and tempering selections can be made/suggested.

IMHO starting out selecting a knife design and steel selection is like putting cart b4 the horse. Yes, very common practise in the knife community I realize. I would counter with that is why we have sooooo many grossly overbuilt knives that while the average user believes they are awesome because they cut, they chop, etc. but are really serious under-performers compared to what they could have been.

A perhaps simpler way might be to buy an inexpensive example of what you think you want. Spend some quality time with it doing the things you expect it to do. Adjust the geometry of the blade to do things you want to do better. Write down a list of likes/dislikes & improvements you think you'd like that are beyond your modification capabilities. Then discuss your findings with a maker that can design a keeper that is all your own.

I struggle with these things myself and have learned for example that when I search Hudson Bay Knife that it's easy to look at all the pic's and say cool, I want one. Then all of a sudden I begin to notice all kinds of various differences and start wondering how each difference would affect performance of various tasks. There's a huge amount of various makers influences on what is current being produced (and that's a great thing for the person that is able to define the simple list of needs/unwilling to sacrifice, wants, likes of a design.

I had thought about doing just that... Buying a cheap condor and beating on it to see what changes I would make. This seams like the way to start. As it costs like 50$

I was going for a primary flat grind with some sort of secondary bevel to increase strenght. While I do want a knife that would chop and do wood tasks, I run fire and rescue on a lake so I would like it to also be robust enough to handle some random tasks needed. I know I want a stronger steel cause I may end up using it as a pry bar someday lol.. so D2 and cpm3v with a cerakote come to mind as good metals for possible hard tasks.

What are friends for....

 

[stabman]

I don't really think it's related to difficulty in field sharpening as much as I think that there are diminishing returns with some steels related to the blades steel properties & geometry becoming thicker by design (more weight, toughness, and strength). Myself & others have posted some information that may shed some light on this is a thread related to CPM3V questions related to potential use in tomahawks.

If interested here's a link to that thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1367456-tomahawk-from-cpm3v/page2
In post #27 I explain more related to my comments above, where I think a fair amount may apply to your specific question about big choppers.

hOpefully something of use here ;-)

If sharpening in the field is a concern, carry a shall sharpener that will work on whatever steel you're carrying.
Many are readily available for reasonable prices.

As for geometry and all that jazz, with CPM3V you can go thinner and retain strength, BUT you can also keep the thickness and have even MORE strength and toughness.
If I'm getting a chopper in CPM3V, it isn't so I can carry a thinner, lighter knife, it's so I can carry a more indestructible knife with good edge retention.

I don't much care about weight, unless it's more than 2 pounds...that gets a bit much for carry or use when the shoulder muscles are pulled from other activities, or I have some stupid injuries.

 

[trevitrace]

That's a very good point. I had not considered bugs. If you are travelling long distances, i.e. over bug zones, it would be dickish not to consider the risk of spreading pests. You can do a lot of damage when you introduce a new species to an area. :thumbup:

Yup. Same as the guys who can't take a few minutes to drain their livewell or pick bits of seaweed off the trailer/boat before leaving the landing.

 

[stabman]

Yup. Same as the guys who can't take a few minutes to drain their livewell or pick bits of seaweed off the trailer/boat before leaving the landing.

Invasive species suck.
It doesn't take many of them to spread like wildfire and screw up an entire ecosystem something fierce.

 

[Czechmate]

Anyone have one of these and care to chime in? They always looked more appealing to me than a BK2...

3/8" S7 tool steel FTW. :thumbup:

 

[Spey]

I had thought about doing just that... Buying a cheap condor and beating on it to see what changes I would make. This seams like the way to start. As it costs like 50$

I was going for a primary flat grind with some sort of secondary bevel to increase strenght. While I do want a knife that would chop and do wood tasks, I run fire and rescue on a lake so I would like it to also be robust enough to handle some random tasks needed. I know I want a stronger steel cause I may end up using it as a pry bar someday lol.. so D2 and cpm3v with a cerakote come to mind as good metals for possible hard tasks.

Yes, I'd say get that Condor Hudson Bay. Should be able to find for around $40 shipped with a functional leather sheath. Make a plan to do some of your own work to it, and/or get a friend with some tools to help (very rewarding it would be for you).
Also, you might want to check out the Moonshiner that I think was recently released. I did not like the Moonshiner because of the false swedge spine (not very good for batoning - chews up the baton). But, easy enough to simply grind away ;-)
Hudson Bay 8.5" 5mm (3/16") thick 1075 Carbon Steel
Moonshiner 9" 5mm (3/16") thick 1075 Carbon Steel
Moonshiner - slightly shorter blade height = slightly steeper primary = possibly slightly better splitter (presuming other things being equal)

A couple years back I played around with Old Hickory Knives making practice Bushcrafters & Nessmuks.
I can remember my family having Old Hickory kitchen knives, and that the steel performed well (my sister still has at least one Butcher that is probably over 40-years old and used daily to this day) 1095 High Carbon Steel. Both myself, and a bushcrafting friend have batoned the heck out these knives before deciding to invest the time & energy to customize them in cut-down profiles. Needless to say I have been impressed with the performance from $12 msrp knives (I think I paid $7 for these). They also produce a model called The Cleaver that has a little thicker spine, which makes a great project knife also.

The Butcher is avail in I think 3 blade lengths (7"/10"/14") 1095 High Carbon Steel
The Cleaver I think is only avail in one blade length (7")
If I remember correctly the website states the Cleaver & Butcher are same thickness, which is not what I have found personally.

Here's a few pic's of mine:
The Butcher, now more of a Bushcrafter (boiling apple cider vinegar patina to keep rust at bay) with a little handle work to relieve hot-spots when working wood.
Cut-down to 5-7/8" O.A. Blade Length with Reground 4.5dps Primary & 15dps Secondary bevels:
https://www.instagram.com/p/xanq72zNPk/?taken-by=gravityroller
https://www.instagram.com/p/xavmpuzNL-/?taken-by=gravityroller
https://www.instagram.com/p/vububGTNCX/?taken-by=gravityroller

Another The Butcher project, now in more of a Nessmuker (cold-blue patina to keep rust at bay, Cleaver in background I think has acid patina) Have not gotten around to cutting down the Cleaver project yet :-( I actually started moving more twoards scraping the wood handle scales for some burlap micarta but other knives have consumed my time displacing these projects. They were really great learning projects though with regard to how small changes can bring a knife to life (based on various tasks performed). Very cheap learning tools ;-)
Cut-down to 6-1/2" O.A. Blade Length with 15/20dps Dual Bevel Secondary Bevels & a Finger Choil added

I have been very impressed with regard to how well these knives held up. They were really great learning projects though with regard to how small changes can bring a knife to life (based on various tasks performed). Very cheap learning tools ;-) Hopefully some of this helps to illustrate the pints I was attempting to make earlier in this thread about blade design & geometry (with regard to performance of desired tasks) being most important in my mind.

Regards,
Christopher

 

[tatalley10]

Yes, I'd say get that Condor Hudson Bay. Should be able to find for around $40 shipped with a functional leather sheath. Make a plan to do some of your own work to it, and/or get a friend with some tools to help (very rewarding it would be for you).
Also, you might want to check out the Moonshiner that I think was recently released. I did not like the Moonshiner because of the false swedge spine (not very good for batoning - chews up the baton). But, easy enough to simply grind away ;-)
Hudson Bay 8.5" 5mm (3/16") thick 1075 Carbon Steel
Moonshiner 9" 5mm (3/16") thick 1075 Carbon Steel
Moonshiner - slightly shorter blade height = slightly steeper primary = possibly slightly better splitter (presuming other things being equal)

A couple years back I played around with Old Hickory Knives making practice Bushcrafters & Nessmuks.
I can remember my family having Old Hickory kitchen knives, and that the steel performed well (my sister still has at least one Butcher that is probably over 40-years old and used daily to this day) 1095 High Carbon Steel. Both myself, and a bushcrafting friend have batoned the heck out these knives before deciding to invest the time & energy to customize them in cut-down profiles. Needless to say I have been impressed with the performance from $12 msrp knives (I think I paid $7 for these). They also produce a model called The Cleaver that has a little thicker spine, which makes a great project knife also.

The Butcher is avail in I think 3 blade lengths (7"/10"/14") 1095 High Carbon Steel
The Cleaver I think is only avail in one blade length (7")
If I remember correctly the website states the Cleaver & Butcher are same thickness, which is not what I have found personally.

Here's a few pic's of mine:
The Butcher, now more of a Bushcrafter (boiling apple cider vinegar patina to keep rust at bay) with a little handle work to relieve hot-spots when working wood.
Cut-down to 5-7/8" O.A. Blade Length with Reground 4.5dps Primary & 15dps Secondary bevels:
https://www.instagram.com/p/xanq72zNPk/?taken-by=gravityroller
https://www.instagram.com/p/xavmpuzNL-/?taken-by=gravityroller
https://www.instagram.com/p/vububGTNCX/?taken-by=gravityroller

Another The Butcher project, now in more of a Nessmuker (cold-blue patina to keep rust at bay, Cleaver in background I think has acid patina) Have not gotten around to cutting down the Cleaver project yet :-( I actually started moving more twoards scraping the wood handle scales for some burlap micarta but other knives have consumed my time displacing these projects. They were really great learning projects though with regard to how small changes can bring a knife to life (based on various tasks performed). Very cheap learning tools ;-)
Cut-down to 6-1/2" O.A. Blade Length with 15/20dps Dual Bevel Secondary Bevels & a Finger Choil added

I have been very impressed with regard to how well these knives held up. They were really great learning projects though with regard to how small changes can bring a knife to life (based on various tasks performed). Very cheap learning tools ;-) Hopefully some of this helps to illustrate the pints I was attempting to make earlier in this thread about blade design & geometry (with regard to performance of desired tasks) being most important in my mind.

Regards,
Christopher

Yeah the moonshiner looks cool but the false edge kills it. Now making one without that would be way cool... I'll try the Hudson bay knife first

 

[tatalley10]

My first knife grinds, they are almost ready for touch up and being mailed to peters heat treat. Both full flat grind and will get a small bevel sharpening from the Ken onion work sharp when they get back!