Phosphor Bronze Washers???

[photoman12001]

Short Story:
I'm not happy with the actions on my Emerson knives. I would like to try installing phosphor bronze washers to improve the action and haven't seen much discussion on it.
Has anyone done this?
Can anyone point me to a specific washer and source for purchase?

Long Story:
I discovered Emersons last year. I was attracted to several of the designs I saw and ended up buying about a dozen different knives ranging from a 2005 CQC-7A to a 2015 Combat Karambit. I can't say that I was 100% pleased with any of them based on everything from poor fit/finish (yes both of these) to inconsistent lock-up that didn't inspire much confidence.

Later last year I discovered Zero Tolerance and starting picking up some Taichung Spydercos. That changed my perspective. I jumped in with ZTs and picked up several of them. Most of them are awesome, robust knives with great fit and finish. Since most of my ZTs offered better fit/finish and more confidence-inspiring lock-up than the Emersons at similar or lower prices, I started questioning why I owned the Emersons. The nail in the Emerson coffin for me was my ZT 0630. To me it just blew its CQC-8 and Horseman cousins out of the water in all respects except ergonomics. The Emersons have an edge there. So I started selling my Emersons and picking up more ZTs, Spydercos, and Benchmades.

I will give Emerson one high point: many of the designs have fantastic ergonomics and blade shapes. This led me to keep my Horseman, CQC-10, and Combat Karambit/Trainer combo but when I handle these after messing with my other knives their poor actions frustrate me to no end. None of them "wave" well and have torn a couple of pants trying. By contrast my ZT 0630, Spyderco Karahawk, and Cold Steel AK-47 and "wave" beautifully. I'm on the fence with ditching my last Emersons but I'd like to try improving their actions before taking that step. Dismantling, cleaning, and lubing did not get them where I'd like them.

 

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[rayster357]

^^What he said is true for me as well. I have switched a couple to bronze to no real functional difference.

One thing to always consider is that the typical Emerson linerlock is built different from other brands. Emerson has used their Safe-D-Tent system since the 90's so one shouldn't expect them to behave like other brands as there are 2 detent balls against the blade causing more friction and not necessarily roughness once broken in. The Safe-D-Tent system allows independent adjustment of the closed detent's strength without altering the strength of the lockbar in regards to spring force..

The effectiveness of the Wave will vary due to placement of the hook in relation to the handle. Shape and form is all set according to the design of the opened knife, mechanics after that. Aslo folks draw their knife out of pocket differently from others. Example would be tha fact that I didn't like the 0620, 0620CF or the 0630 I had as the were difficult to Wave out of pocket and I didn't like the handle shape either. Didn't like the tall blade or it's thicker blade stock on the ZT's as well.

We all have our preferences so go with what works for you.

 

[photoman12001]

Thank you for the insight. All my knives with nice actions have PB or bearing washers so I thought it might be worth a try with the Emersons.

Of my remaining Emersons the Horseman and Karmabit trainer see the most use. I mess with the trainer constantly on my long commutes to/from work. It eventually developed so much side-to-side blade play that I had to torque the pivot screw down to the point that it's a real bear to open. The Horseman was my EDC knife for several weeks and its action eventually became OK but not great. However, I stopped carrying it because it developed such atrocious up/down blade play that I didn't feel safe using it anymore.

I agree that ZT could have done a much better job with the handle on the 0620/0630. I wish they had just used the CQC-8/Horseman shape which is phenomenal.

 

[jmorton10]

I have knives with both kinds of washers (all my Medfords have phosphor bronze & all but one of my Emersons has nylon)

I don't find any noticeable difference really. Both Medfords & Emersons need breaking in & after that are some of the smoothest knives you will find anywhere.

~John

 

[AusLoX]

My hinderer Xm-18 has nylon and doesn't flip nearly as well as my ZT. But the design feels much better in hand so it doesn't bother me. Just takes some wrist action.

 

[EChoil]

All things being equal, I don't think the addition of different washers will make any difference.

The main thing you are probably noticing in the action is the detent setup, mentioned above, rather than pivot friction. I've never considered Emersons to be 'flickers' when it comes to fast opening via thumb disc. Other knives are better suited to it.

I have no problem with the Nylatron washers as they feel just as smooth as any of my other knives once broken in. I think one of the problems is people are too impatient for break-in smoothness with Emersons. They tend to want to take the knife apart upon receipt, lube it and tweak it so it feels like it's been used for months.

I've always allowed my Emersons to break in under factory assembly, regardless of how it might feel out of the box. Any initial grittiness or sluggishness in opening/closing I have attributed to the factory applied lubricant working itself into the washers to provide a lifetime of lubrication. Eventually they smooth out nicely. If, after allowing plenty of break-in time, I still feel tweaking is necessary, I'll do it then. Rarely has it been necessary.

I never lube my Emerson knives. Only exception is if they get clogged with dirt enough to affect the action I'll spray it out well with WD-40 or similar and let it dry. If you are wanting a fast opening flick knife I'd recommend another brand.

 

[Akapennypincher]

Please do not refer to me as a "horses anything", but I tend to leave my Emersons bare bones stock. Kind of like a Glock Safe Action Pistol that they call "GLOCK PERFECTION".

I think an Emerson knife is just fine work knife when they come out of the packaging, and get work a little in what is referred to as break-in.

I will compliment you on your photo illustration, and changing the color of the thumb disc. Looks very good & a great photo illistration.

 

[photoman12001]

Please do not refer to me as a "horses anything", but I tend to leave my Emersons bare bones stock. Kind of like a Glock Safe Action Pistol that they call "GLOCK PERFECTION".

I think an Emerson knife is just fine work knife when they come out of the packaging, and get work a little in what is referred to as break-in.

I will compliment you on your photo illustration, and changing the color of the thumb disc. Looks very good & a great photo illistration.

Thanks
Those thumb discs are actually the bases of spent .357 & .44 magnum cases.
I like the look and they work really well too.

Glocks do work well out of the box, or at least they always have for me, but it can be fun and beneficial to swap a few parts out to fine tune them for the user's preference.

 

[Akapennypincher]

Thanks
Those thumb discs are actually the bases of spent .357 & .44 magnum cases.
I like the look and they work really well too.

Glocks do work well out of the box, or at least they always have for me, but it can be fun and beneficial to swap a few parts out to fine tune them for the user's preference.

More nice photos that you did a good job with. Glock is now on generation IV, I like generation III Glocks. Think they need not do no more tweaking. But I am sure Glock with like the norm come out with another Glock model that Glock junkies will line up to buy with ever Gaston put up for sale.

 

[115Italian]

I'm confused because it seems like you dont like emerson and your blades have horrible blade play, washers won't fix your problems. You should contact Emerson and have them fix the blade play. My opinion is that an Emerson will have a longer life than any Zt.

 

[photoman12001]

I'm confused because it seems like you dont like emerson and your blades have horrible blade play, washers won't fix your problems. You should contact Emerson and have them fix the blade play.

You're right, I should send the Horseman in. I'm just having trouble getting past the $14 return shipping fee but right now it's just sitting there useless. I really like the size and blade/handle shape on that one. I was hoping PB washers might help the Karambit trainer.

My opinion is that an Emerson will have a longer life than any Zt.

What leads you to believe that? I don't want this degrading into a Emerson is great/Emerson sucks debate but my personal experience does not support that. Even my most well-used ZT feels more solid than any of my Emersons, new or used. I bought that Horseman new and within about a month of light use (basically just opening bags/envelopes, clothing off clothing tags, etc.) its lockup degraded to the point that I didn't feel safe using it. I've never experienced that with any other reputable knife brand.

 

[jmclfrsh]

If you want immediate relief, take the knife apart, clean it with WD40 and wipe everything off with a clean rag. Reassemble.

If you bend the clip out a hair - I have about 1mm of space between my clips and my handle scales - it will then wave like crazy as you've reduced friction between the clip and scale facing by relieving that area a tad. Also, the removal of the Emerson Lube will speed it up a lot.

I've done that to every Emerson I own with the exception of my newest one. I am bound and determined to leave it alone on the lubrication front, and break it in as others have described above. I did adjust the clip spacing as described above.

I'm also working on a little sticton of the lock face and blade mating surface, but that I'll go away on its own so no worries there. One of my other Emerson had the same thing and now it opens effortlessly. Didn't take to long at all. Nowhere near as bad as on my Wilson Combat Eagles, but now they disengage the lock easier than any other knife I own.

If you do those things, they should wave very easily with a resounding "thwack!" I'm not saying it is right to clean it up, but it cures any sluggish waving action.

 

[photoman12001]

^^^^^Thanks, I'll try that. Honestly I'm not too concerned with the waving action and I don't need them to open with a wrist flick either. I just want them to open smoothly with the thumb disc/hole. Right now I feel like I have to fight the knives to get them open.

 

[Lycosa]

That EKI knife will break in to perfection. Just give it time.
If you are fighting to get your knives open, something is wrong.
rolf

 

[115Italian]

What leads you to believe that? I don't want this degrading into a Emerson is great/Emerson sucks debate but my personal experience does not support that. Even my most well-used ZT feels more solid than any of my Emersons, new or used. I bought that Horseman new and within about a month of light use (basically just opening bags/envelopes, clothing off clothing tags, etc.) its lockup degraded to the point that I didn't feel safe using it. I've never experienced that with any other reputable knife brand.

It was just my opinion and experience. My Emerson just seems to be built better. I love my Zt 0562 but the ball bearings won't last. I feel eventually the thin g10 is going to crack due to some sort of accidental Impact. Zt does make a strong knife, not saying they're bad. We all have our own experiences. It does suck that you're having those problems with your knives. I remeber reading that Emerson will pay for the shipping if the knife really needs to be fixed. I could be wrong.

 

[photoman12001]

I share your concerns about bearing pivots. The only knives I have with them are a ZT 0900 and Brous SSF. There is no denying that the actions are super smooth but many of my knives with PB washers are just as smooth. Maybe those designs require the ball bearings to work well though, I really don't know. To me it seems like an unnecessarily complicated part but that's just my opinion.

 

[Therom]

I would like to try PB washers on my horseman
Can someone gives me the dimensions of the washers and a good supplier from whom to get them?

 

[photoman12001]

I just got my Horseman back from warranty service. EKI fixed the bad blade play & lockup. I believe they replaced the liner. They also waived the return shipping fee. I'm still not overly fond of Emerson knives but I had a good experience with their warranty service. I'm torn on whether or not to keep this one. I think I would like it better with PB washers and some custom scales as I saw in another thread. I'm also hesitant to modify it because I feel like I'm going to need the warranty down the road.

 

[rayster357]

You can still install bronze washers and aftermarket stuff. Just don't modify or ditch the original parts and send it in stock form. I say use the knife that it properly breaks in. Then you'll know if there's a warranty concern or not. Broken in, should be good for a while so go ahead and change the scales, disc, washers , clip and/or stand-offs out.