Photographing Traditional Knives

[pistonsandgears]

I usually take my pictures outside using a small popup lightbox tent to diffuse the light and a low end Nikon DSLR with the standard kit lens. Using natural light makes it a bit tricky to get a good bright picture on cloudy days and winter days. Shots are hand held as I am usually in to much of a hurry to grab tripods and set everything up just right.
I never really thought about it much but looking at my photos I usually do play on the angles. When I take the pictures I just lay the knives down and move them around until I like the way they look in the picture.

 

[Chief]

I don't have anything that precise, but I do try to adjust to as close to a known color as possible.

What is your known color? What you believe to be grey is not precise at all, trust me, it's just a wag. Honestly, am not trying to be a jerk, it's just that misrepresented knives through strong handed Photoshop is one of my pet peeves. Not saying you are guilty, your photos are excellent, but with just a little coaching they could be outstanding.

Here's how to get precise. Get any grey reference card, photography stores have them for less than five bucks. PM me your address and I'll mail you one, I have an extra or two. Position your reference so it is located somewhere in the viewfinder but on the edge, out of the way, and crop it out before resizing for the final pic. Use it like this example. Click your white balance tool somewhere on the whibal card, you can see my cursor's crosshairs in the black rectangle. That will automatically set your blue / yellow warm / cool value and your red / green tint value so the RGB values are the same, like this. Note the RGB values on the info tab on the right, 208,208,208 perfect grey. Since the grey is a certified reference, the remaining colors in the photo are now accurate as well.

 

[mrknife]

you guys all do such good jobs! here i am with my burlap sack on my desk

 

[Easyrider]

I am envious of those individuals with real photography skills! I am never happy with my photos. I just do not have a eye for it I guess.

There are some really beautiful photos in this thread.

Well done ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Pomsbz]

Chief I'm a pro reproduction photographer, manager of the digitization studio for a museum of antiquities. The only difference between an image coming out of camera, out of the Adobe raw converter or out of an IG filter on an iphone is degree of manipulation. None of them comes close to accuracy as we would define it. Certainly not Adobe profiles built with your 24 patch colour checker chart. I'll let you into a secret, there's not a single dealer online today taking photos of their GEC knives using true ICC profiles or a linear curve for their online sales. I doubt they'd sell a single one if they did.

But I would like to express a counter point of view to your premise.

We are not taking and presenting our pictures to provide a historical record. We are not even trying to sell the products. We are having fun. I don't see how photographic rules specific to accurate representation can have any place here. Or indeed any place outside of a history book. 99% of the population do not begin to have accurately calibrated screens in any case. Even if the image is accurate it cannot be seen as such by most. Why not just have fun then? Why not be artistic in our imagery rather than pretending that there is some kind of rule dictating accuracy and a measurable lack of perspective distortion for forum presentation?

 

[Pomsbz]

I'll give an example. I went out just now specifically to take this picture.

This image breaks all the rules. It's shot with a full frame sensor at 24mm with an angle chosen to create slight perspective distortion. Even worse I specifically chose a modern high contrast Zeiss lens for added 'pop'. I've guessed the WB, keeping it purposely slightly cool for a more 'modern' look and as my personal camera is unprofiled, there is not a chance the colours of that twig are truly accurate. I've added contrast to combat the flat lighting, done a local adjustment to tone down the brightness of the blade, added midtone contrast ('clarity') and worst of all, added vignetting to taste.

If any of this stuff had been done in my studio at the museum I would have hauled the employee over the carpet. Twice and they would have been fired. It is not historically accurate. Not even close. Everything is wrong with this image as a true representation of the object being photographed.

But artistically I like it, I achieved what I set out to achieve. It aims to express my satisfaction with the knife both aesthetically and practically. So who cares?

 

[Chief]

Pomsbz ... Your museum work is not the target of my pet peeve, your input is swayed by your employment. You have vast knowledge about the accuracy of color, conversions, and profiles, but that doesn't make your opinion about knife sales / photos the final word.

Chief I'll let you into a secret, there's not a single dealer online today taking photos of their GEC knives using true ICC profiles or a linear curve for their online sales. I doubt they'd sell a single one if they did.

We are not taking and presenting our pictures to provide a historical record. We are not even trying to sell the products. We are having fun. I don't see how photographic rules specific to accurate representation can have any place here. Or indeed any place outside of a history book. 99% of the population do not begin to have accurately calibrated screens in any case. Even if the image is accurate it cannot be seen as such by most. Why not just have fun then? Why not be artistic in our imagery rather than pretending that there is some kind of rule dictating accuracy and a measurable lack of perspective distortion for forum presentation?

Strongly disagree. If the dealer understood light, they would sell tons of knives. Case in point, Knives Ships Free takes killer photos without the need for massive amounts of digital misrepresentation. KSF probably sells more GEC knives than any other dealer. Why? Because they take great, accurate, photos with lots of light.

Knife pics in this forum _are_ a historical record. After our bones have turned to dust, our images of famous makers like Tony Bose will be used as provenance. This forum is a history book, like it or not.

So who cares?

I care when people use photo editing tools to artificially represent something they are trying to sell. Buy / sell / trade forum is full of examples. And it even matters here ... I feel it's important to show the maker's work accurately. I buy knives from custom makers mostly based on inputs from other collectors, including photos of their work. As such, I want them to be fairly accurate. You would rather present something artistically, like your example. I understand, all day long you are stuck at work documenting antiquities accurately, and you want to let your artistic hair down outside the workplace. Your example isn't too bad artistically, but in addition to the issues you pointed out IMO your vignetting is way excessive (partially covers the subject) and it's not cropped tight enough nor evenly but if you are looking for artistry instead of accuracy it's ok. The problem exists when artist wannabees try to sell knives once they learn how to blur / burn / oversaturate / vignette images. If you don't see it, you aren't looking or your eye isn't as good as I thought.

After reading over your post, I figured out our disconnect. You use the word "we" as if you are speaking for everyone, when you should be using "I", or "some". You ask what's wrong with you being artistic because you have become tired of chasing accuracy at your employment??? Nothing!!! Have fun!!! But when you are selling knives and every single photo you post has been way, way over edited, it's my pet peeve. Do it for fun, fine, but don't do it to take money out of the pocket of people who don't realize the wool is being pulled over their eyes. That's wrong, that's my pet peeve. Hope that's clear.

FWIW, I'm the 1 percent who calibrates (and recalibrates) my monitor monthly. And I make custom profiles for my printer for each new paper / ink. I would rather you help with your vast knowledge rather than argue the virtues of artistic vs accurate, but that's just me.

 

[Pomsbz]

Pomsbz ... Your museum work is not the target of my pet peeve, your input is swayed by your employment. You have vast knowledge about the accuracy of color, conversions, and profiles, but that doesn't make your opinion about knife sales / photos the final word.



Strongly disagree. If the dealer understood light, they would sell tons of knives. Case in point, Knives Ships Free takes killer photos without the need for massive amounts of digital misrepresentation. KSF probably sells more GEC knives than any other dealer. Why? Because they take great, accurate, photos with lots of light.

Knife pics in this forum _are_ a historical record. After our bones have turned to dust, our images of famous makers like Tony Bose will be used as provenance. This forum is a history book, like it or not.



I care when people use photo editing tools to artificially represent something they are trying to sell. Buy / sell / trade forum is full of examples. And it even matters here ... I feel it's important to show the maker's work accurately. I buy knives from custom makers mostly based on inputs from other collectors, including photos of their work. As such, I want them to be fairly accurate. You would rather present something artistically, like your example. I understand, all day long you are stuck at work documenting antiquities accurately, and you want to let your artistic hair down outside the workplace. Your example isn't too bad artistically, but in addition to the issues you pointed out IMO your vignetting is way excessive (partially covers the subject) and it's not cropped tight enough nor evenly but if you are looking for artistry instead of accuracy it's ok. The problem exists when artist wannabees try to sell knives once they learn how to blur / burn / oversaturate / vignette images. If you don't see it, you aren't looking or your eye isn't as good as I thought.

After reading over your post, I figured out our disconnect. You use the word "we" as if you are speaking for everyone, when you should be using "I", or "some". You ask what's wrong with you being artistic because you have become tired of chasing accuracy at your employment??? Nothing!!! Have fun!!! But when you are selling knives and every single photo you post has been way, way over edited, it's my pet peeve. Do it for fun, fine, but don't do it to take money out of the pocket of people who don't realize the wool is being pulled over their eyes. That's wrong, that's my pet peeve. Hope that's clear.

FWIW, I'm the 1 percent who calibrates (and recalibrates) my monitor monthly. And I make custom profiles for my printer for each new paper / ink. I would rather you help with your vast knowledge rather than argue the virtues of artistic vs accurate, but that's just me.

Dear oh dear. Shakes head and walks away.

 

[Wurrwulf]

Pomsbz ... Your museum work is not the target of my pet peeve, your input is swayed by your employment. You have vast knowledge about the accuracy of color, conversions, and profiles, but that doesn't make your opinion about knife sales / photos the final word.



Strongly disagree. If the dealer understood light, they would sell tons of knives. Case in point, Knives Ships Free takes killer photos without the need for massive amounts of digital misrepresentation. KSF probably sells more GEC knives than any other dealer. Why? Because they take great, accurate, photos with lots of light.

Knife pics in this forum _are_ a historical record. After our bones have turned to dust, our images of famous makers like Tony Bose will be used as provenance. This forum is a history book, like it or not.



I care when people use photo editing tools to artificially represent something they are trying to sell. Buy / sell / trade forum is full of examples. And it even matters here ... I feel it's important to show the maker's work accurately. I buy knives from custom makers mostly based on inputs from other collectors, including photos of their work. As such, I want them to be fairly accurate. You would rather present something artistically, like your example. I understand, all day long you are stuck at work documenting antiquities accurately, and you want to let your artistic hair down outside the workplace. Your example isn't too bad artistically, but in addition to the issues you pointed out IMO your vignetting is way excessive (partially covers the subject) and it's not cropped tight enough nor evenly but if you are looking for artistry instead of accuracy it's ok. The problem exists when artist wannabees try to sell knives once they learn how to blur / burn / oversaturate / vignette images. If you don't see it, you aren't looking or your eye isn't as good as I thought.

After reading over your post, I figured out our disconnect. You use the word "we" as if you are speaking for everyone, when you should be using "I", or "some". You ask what's wrong with you being artistic because you have become tired of chasing accuracy at your employment??? Nothing!!! Have fun!!! But when you are selling knives and every single photo you post has been way, way over edited, it's my pet peeve. Do it for fun, fine, but don't do it to take money out of the pocket of people who don't realize the wool is being pulled over their eyes. That's wrong, that's my pet peeve. Hope that's clear.

FWIW, I'm the 1 percent who calibrates (and recalibrates) my monitor monthly. And I make custom profiles for my printer for each new paper / ink. I would rather you help with your vast knowledge rather than argue the virtues of artistic vs accurate, but that's just me.

This isn't The Exchange, this isn't a historical record (whether you think it is or not, Blade Forums will not wind up in the Congressional Library as historical fact), and BF isn't a dealer. One day, Photobucket, Imgur, BF Servers, etc will no longer exist. The vast majority of pictures on this site will no longer exist in 15 years. Are you archiving the photos on this site?

You're fighting a losing battle, but if this is your particular hill, have fun.

 

[blee]

Here Here!!! Which brings me to emphasize the importance of something Jeff said, edited his photos for correct white balance. 99% of photographers don't know how to do this and many over embellish the actual color. If I threw down a piece of 550 cord and asked you how long it was, you could only guess. If I put that same piece of 550 cord along a yardstick, you now have something to measure it against and will come up with a much more accurate answer. The same thing exists with light. Even expensive cameras like my 5D MK III only guesses, and misses 99 percent of the time. You have to have a reference somewhere in your photo to measure the colors of the light in order to get the color of your final photo accurate. I have spent hundreds of dollars on white balance measuring products, and none are better than a small whibal (spelled correctly, google it or search the bay).

Another WhiBal user here. I always take a shot with the card if I remember to.

 

[btb01]

Boy, this thread sure has taken quite a detour from the original discussion about, essentially, shield-text-orientation.

I'll say one thing for sure: I've never shared a photo on this site in which the knife shown wasn't presented exactly as-is with 100% accuracy.

 

[Vaporstang]

Back to the shield/text orientation discussion....(I'm a slow learner, but I am learning).

 

[Chief]

This isn't The Exchange, this isn't a historical record (whether you think it is or not, Blade Forums will not wind up in the Congressional Library as historical fact), and BF isn't a dealer. One day, Photobucket, Imgur, BF Servers, etc will no longer exist. The vast majority of pictures on this site will no longer exist in 15 years. Are you archiving the photos on this site?

I archive every photo I post on my web site and they will be there long after my bones are dust. My website is my name, my son's name, and my grandson's name. When I'm gone they will own it, and it's my will that they keep it registered. When photo hosting image services got the freeloaders hooked and then began charging for hosting pics what happened? A huge number of photos disappeared, but not mine.

Once posted, photos are not entirely lost, even if the original server is gone. Google "web archive search" to find sites dedicated to archiving every post, photo, etc. "Explore more than 305 billion web pages saved over time" ~ Wayback machine. They have my web site pages / photos that are over 10 years old and have been deleted. They have this site crawled / archived, every post, every photo, it's what they do.

Why do you think businesses that host photos will no longer exist, what will replace them? I want to invest in that.

This forum is a historical record approaching 19 years old. Think big picture, not all historical records end up in the Congressional Library. Even this subforum has fantastic historical threads (NYK company history, Old Knives, etc) that you won't find anywhere else. The members who contribute to those threads have knowledge that would be otherwise lost, documenting history. Want to learn the history of TC Barlows? It's here and nowhere else, complete with pictures. Want to see how stag holds up after it's been on a knife 150 years? It's here. BF _has_ been a dealer in the past, more than once, remember 1SKS? Would you like to learn the history of Bladeforums being a dealer? It's here. Want to learn the history of traditional forum knives? Here too. Is someone a trustworthy seller? Look at their history, search the GB&U forum. History ... learn from it or repeat it.

BF is a living, breathing historical record of manufacturers knives, their progress, their failures, successes, customer service, etc. Spark is fairly young, expect BF to exist in one form or another for a loooong time.

btb01 those are beautiful examples without heavy handed processing, love the bear!

 

[Pomsbz]

Till the next time they do a 'photobucket' In a stroke PB managed to kill years of 'historical record' internet wide with their $400 ransom. So very many threads here with page after page of grey square boxes.

From a professional perspective (this is a big discussion among historians and digital technicians today) I'm not holding my breath on any of these photos still existing in just 25 years from now. Or indeed most of the vast image record of the first decades of the digital age. I was discussing this with the head of the digitization department at the National Library here earlier today. Our thoughts are that all the work done worldwide in our field will need to be repeated again in 20 years. By which time there might be some international standards for digital image preservation. Currently nothing of the kind begins to exist. The technological world is in too great a state of change. Everyone is doing their own thing. That is with museums and libraries who care about this stuff and are actively discussing the problem. Social media is a ticking time bomb. Vast swathes of our current record of life will just disappear. Slowly and quietly but there will be a gap. A big one. The records will have been lost with no real, physical artefacts to tell the story.

Web archival is a nice idea but horrifically limited and in itself a ticking time bomb like all current digital data except this one has an additional time bomb, government funding.

All this assuming that when we joined the forum we in any way whatsoever assumed a duty to the idea of providing a historical record with some kind of assumed definition of accuracy which in no way fits any kind of official scientific definition.

Chief , give it up. I do not doubt your enthusiasm but what you're preaching is on very wobbly foundations.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Back to the shield/text orientation discussion....(I'm a slow learner, but I am learning).

Just be careful opening all the blades puttin' the backsprings under an excessive load. You risk weakening the springs or possibly even breakin' them at the back spring pivot, especially with a thinner framed knife like a Tuxedo or like your Tidioute there.

 

[Vaporstang]

Just be careful opening all the blades puttin' the backsprings under an excessive load. You risk weakening the springs or possibly even breakin' them at the back spring pivot, especially with a thinner framed knife like a Tuxedo or like your Tidioute there.

Thanks for the advice! The pen blade was at the half-stop, but the others were not.

 

[Chief]

Pomsbz I'll never give until you refute facts with facts. Again, due to your employment, your perspective on photos is way different than the general forum member. JPG has been a standard since 1992 and is the widest used photo format today, let me know what you think will replace it on the internet. 25 years is not a wobbly foundation. Clue: It won't be 16 bit uncompressed tiffs or 12 bit compressed CR2 files, probably what you use in your work, it will be something not yet invented. Will your work change in 25 years? Absolutely! But my JPGs will still be there, still be viewable as any change will certainly be backwards compatible. My grandson just turned 2, check my website in 25 years, care to make a wager today if you can still view my photos then? I'm down.

Which dealer has the best knife photos on the web? KSF Which dealer sells more GECs? KSF Coincidence? Don't think so ...

Artefacts? Are you British? It's ok if you are, that's just an odd spelling for someone in the business.

I would like to see some more examples of your photographic abilities. Here's a few I took from a recent USAF Thunderbirds Airshow for comparison.

http://www.johnferguson.net/2017thunderbirds/

 

[Pomsbz]

Pomsbz I'll never give until you refute facts with facts. Again, due to your employment, your perspective on photos is way different than the general forum member. JPG has been a standard since 1992 and is the widest used photo format today, let me know what you think will replace it on the internet. 25 years is not a wobbly foundation. Clue: It won't be 16 bit uncompressed tiffs or 12 bit compressed CR2 files, probably what you use in your work, it will be something not yet invented. Will your work change in 25 years? Absolutely! But my JPGs will still be there, still be viewable as any change will certainly be backwards compatible. My grandson just turned 2, check my website in 25 years, care to make a wager today if you can still view my photos then? I'm down.

Which dealer has the best knife photos on the web? KSF Which dealer sells more GECs? KSF Coincidence? Don't think so ...

Artefacts? Are you British? It's ok if you are, that's just an odd spelling for someone in the business.

I would like to see some more examples of your photographic abilities. Here's a few I took from a recent USAF Thunderbirds Airshow for comparison.

http://www.johnferguson.net/2017thunderbirds/

My photographic abilities are irrelevant though you seem hell bent on making them the point of the argument to the extent of trying to critique my previous image by some made up rules which you seem to believe might pertain to artistic representation despite that being a contradiction in terms.

My facts are these. Digital archiving is my profession. I was the Art Director at a local college for five years. I have been exhibited on three continents.

You are way way out of your depth.

Yes I am British though I no longer live in the UK.

I can argue your GEC point too, with imagery to show how unreal studio lighting is in comparison to real life but I'm done. This has become beyond pointless.

 

[Peregrin]

Take it offline guys. Thanks.

 

[joeradza]

And to think all I wanted to know is if a photo looked better one way or another.