Pics of edge damage from concrete & steel

Jeff Clark said:
I also sharpened machetes and bayonets with a file and noticed that they seemed to slice better before I smoothed up the edge with a hone.
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Mike Swaim origionally talked about filed vs polished edges back on rec.knives, he did some work with filed vs coarse stone edges but not a lot. I tried some work with filed edges off and on but never liked the edges they produced, I had a large problem getting them crisp.

I even bought a few new high quality files and it made no difference. Then again I usually use harder steels which don't file well, but I was never able to get a filed edge which cut as well or had anywhere near the edge retention of a 100 grit AO edge, 80 grit works even better according to Chad.

In regards to machetes, Possom uses the point on the Bowie for some cutting, and he is really particular about the handle and balance.

-Cliff
 
James-
The blade is not that long by coincidence; it's largely why it's that long. That, and also so I just have more reach, and so if I ever break the point off I can regrind it and still have a big knife. I have also used pocket knives in the past though.

Several folks have mentioned machetes. I've used 'em on rats several times myself. I figure, sure, they can work. But me and a buddy tested them on coon carcasses before, and didn't get satisfactory performance. Based on that, I wouldn't choose one over my bowie, but for someone just wanting to give it a try for cheap they might be an option. There's of course more to it than just having a long blade though. I have a Windlass sword that is much larger than my bowie, but doesn't cut with even half the power, because the balance is way off.
Yeah, I know many folks cringe at abusing a nice knife this way, but I designed it specifically to work better for this purpose than all the cheaper alternatives I could find. I know guys who go deer hunting with beautiful handmade muzzle loading rifles, instead of whatever was on sale at Cabella's, because they just appreciate using well crafted tools. Same here.

Jeff-
The speargun idea does sound interesting. It may be useful in certain circumstances. I actually thought about making a small pistol sized crossbow for this reason as well, and just haven't gotten around to making it. There does come a limit on how much stuff I can carry around quietly, and right now I'm about there with a big bowie, pistol, maglite, shotgun, and pockets bulging full of ammo. Another idea, was I started making a .62 caliber black powder pistol, which is basically a legal way to have a sawn-off 20 guage shotgun without all the paperwork. The barrel is still laying on my workbench, covered in dust.
 
the possum said:
I know many folks cringe at abusing a nice knife this way...
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Some people don't appreciate working tools. Large brush blades take such impacts all the time. It is no different than working the nicks out of a lawnmower blade. Chas Clements makes really high end leather sheaths, and I mean really high end, they are made to be working cases though many again would probably not use them, but there is a tremendous amount of effort towards making them durable enough for it.

-Cliff
 
Possom, It is probably not obvious, but a rubber-powered hand spear is not a spear "gun". In general I don't let the spear completely out of my grasp. Commonly these things are over 6 feet long. When you stretch the rubber band there is only a half foot of spear in front of your hand. You get to within 4 or 5 feet of your target and relax your grip. You grab the handle before the spear gets away from you. With about 4 feet of travel the spear is sliding through your hand really fast when it hits the target. It also takes off towards the target without any warning motions on your part. I wouldn't use one of those 3-tined frog gigs for this purpose. It would be hard to get out of your target (or more likely the backstop behind your target). I would buy one of those Cold Steel spear, assegai, or pike heads.

PS. There are several different styles of Machete blade. Most of them are not well designed for this purpose. I used to have a Collins model that was pretty suitable. I'll look for an example. One thing that would work is a balisong.
 
Since it seems this thread has focused on actually hunting critters with a knife, as much as the knife itself, I may as well provide a link to my coon hunting page. But BE WARNED. I go into a lot more details there, and at times in an attempt to make it interesting to read, I probably sound like a bloodthirsty redneck. Don't click on this link if you've been remotely offended by anything you've seen here so far. The Possum's Coon Hunting Page

I go into details there for the specific reason of allowing people to really see how I do it. If I just wrote, "I got a coon with my bowie knife", there is plenty of room for guessing and questions, like has already happened here.

Now, since some here have expressed interest in trying this themselves, I want to take a moment to address some things that I've never talked about specifically on my coon hunting page. (these thoughts are there, but scattered and buried in all the reading)

Namely, safety. This is one area where Jeff's nunchucks or a blunt object really have the advantage. Running around with a big knife is dangerous. Yeah, you already knew that. Seriously, I've fallen on top of my gun on more than one occasion. It's a very real possibility that dad could find me some morning laying in a pool of my own blood. Give the knife the same respect that any very lethal weapon deserves. A knife this big, or sword, is in an entirely different class than an EDC folder. Stay away from other people. When I hand my knife to someone, and they step closer to me or start swinging it around, I get that same uneasy feeling I do when someone crosses me with the muzzle of a gun. When chasing coons, I leave the knife sheathed until I'm right on top of them. (so naturally, you'll have to think about a quickdraw scabbard) If I have to move any distance with a bare blade, I hold it out straight to the side at my full arm's length. If there's no room, such as the other night when I was ducking through tall weeds after that coon, I actually hold the knife at full arm's length behind me. This way, if I do fall, it won't be on top of the knife. I've already conditioned my mind so that if I do fall, hopefully I won't instinctively use my blade hand to try to catch myself. I'll gladly take a busted chin or poke in the eye over a bowie in my gut.

Don't try to resheathe the knife in the middle of a chase. You need to take your time and full attention, with good light, to do this. I almost shoved my knife through my side this way once. If you need to keep chasing a critter, but don't want/need the knife any more, just drop it right there, or stick it in the ground or something. Don't keep going into an area with unsure footing with a bare knife. (such as when crossing a ditch, running through tangled underbrush, uneven ground full of holes, etc.) Either stop and carefully resheathe it, or lay it down. Or, in some cases, just throw it to the other side and pick it up again once you're through.

Never swing the knife in any direction where it could remotely come back and hit your legs or something. Even if the blade is not coming directly in line with your body, it can twist, turn, or jump sideways in the cut. Be fully prepared for the knife to go completely through whatever you're cutting, so do not relax your grip. Even with a firm grip, my knife nearly slipped free of my grasp, and came pretty close to spinning around and hitting my neck only a few weeks ago.

Sorry for taking up so much space with this here, but I really wanted people to see this up front. If anyone has more specific questions, you can probably find the answers (well, my answers anyway) by doing some reading on the coon hunting page. Feel free to post questions there as well, as I'd prefer to keep this thread with mostly knife/performance content.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Mike Swaim origionally talked about filed vs polished edges back on rec.knives, he did some work with filed vs coarse stone edges but not a lot. I tried some work with filed edges off and on but never liked the edges they produced, I had a large problem getting them crisp.
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I think filed edges are fine in the field, when you don't have a belt sander or a large sandpaper hone to rip a new edge on with. However, I only use files for machete class blades, very soft compared to most high end cutlery steel.

The file that comes with Martindale machetes is an example, the filed edge works well in this context if you don't have a sander. I like how the file fits into the sheath as well, nice design. (though I don't like the sheath in general, I do like how it incorporates the file)

On the other hand, Jim Aston reported that many moose hunters use filed edges on their skinning knives, finding them much perferable to honed edges. Such use is similiar to the use discussed here, both involve cutting through fur and hide.

I even bought a few new high quality files and it made no difference. Then again I usually use harder steels which don't file well, but I was never able to get a filed edge which cut as well or had anywhere near the edge retention of a 100 grit AO edge, 80 grit works even better according to Chad.
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Works better in what way? 80 grit edges may be more aggressive than a honed edge (say a medium ceramic for example), but I have to imagine that there would be a lot of drawbacks, the first being durability. While an 80 grit edge might work fine for the work Chad does (looks like kitchen and light utility work based on his reviews) such an edge would be problematic in other settings. Even cutting large rope (Houser line) or hard nylon line, heavy cardboard, wood, etc, those big 80 grit teeth (really micro-serrations) are likely to be either torn out of the edge all together, or deformed to the extent that their cutting ability is seriously deteroriated.

Second, I think really course edges like that are not suited for push cutting at all. I think such course edges are really a very specialized edge finish.

Really course edges are pretty common in industrial kitchens and slaughter houses, meat packing, etc, as a grooved butcher's steel works as a file, rather than burnishing the edge as a smooth steels does.

For a machete class blade, used for clearing soft vegetation a very course edge like that might work fine, and the edge is easy to apply. But for any sort of wood cutting, even alder saplings, willow, sumac, clear pine and the like, I think a polished edge is a much better idea. See for example Jerry Hossom's article on Convexing a machete edge. That is the type of edge I would use on a machte class knife cutting wood thicker than a finger.

In regards to the use at issue here, raccon slaying, I think a course edge will provide more aggression and thus better slashing power, as Possum describes, however the down side to that is perhaps more vunerability to edge damage.

I think his described method, polish the whole bevel, then add some courseness back to the very edge afterwards is an excellent idea.

I have examined the pictures in this thread in detail, and am very impressed with the way your knife perfromed, especially if this was an inconsistent piece of steel. I'd imagine highly alloyed stainless steels (say S30V, ATS34, BG42 etc, See Cliff Stamp's Strider and Recondo reviews for example) would suffer gross failure under those kinds of impacts stresses, yet your damage was confined to the edge bevel.

Chas Clements makes really high end leather sheaths, and I mean really high end, they are made to be working cases though many again would probably not use them, but there is a tremendous amount of effort towards making them durable enough for it.
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His work looks incredible, exhibition grade. I can see his cases (a billards cue case for example) being used by "bespoke" folk, same as a fine Purdy double shotgun. It is however, far out of my price range. As nice as it is, and I truly admire his artistry and craftsmenship, their is no way I could use his knhife sheaths on a field knife. My inclination would be to take the money and put it into several knives insteasd of having one really great sheath, especially when you are talking about working class tools.
 
Hopw about using a Spyderco style serration pattern, that should be massively effective. The serrations are very aggressive, yet fairly fluid. See posts made by Sal in regards to the design of the Civilian for undercover narcotics officers.

As well, the points of the teeth protect the rest of the edge on hard impacts.
 
knifetester said:
Works better in what way?
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Cutting ability and edge retention on a draw/slice. I don't doubt that some people can get good filed edges, it never did anything for me, but I also didn't put a lot of time into it as I can get coarse honed edges easily even on hard steels, it isn't like you can coarse file D2 at 62 HRC.

Even cutting large rope (Houser line) or hard nylon line, heavy cardboard, wood, etc, those big 80 grit teeth (really micro-serrations) are likely to be either torn out of the edge all together, or deformed to the extent that their cutting ability is seriously deteroriated.
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They handle slicing soft materials like those well, push cutting performance and edge retention for that is low as well for reasons you noted. It is like trying to carve with a wood saw, would not run them on an axe - they can be of benefit on a machete on dried grasses, poor on woods.

I have even done it with really soft steel, mild steel and junk metals like tension bars from a fence. Even with steel that weak you can still cut a long time on ropes and such with really coarse teeth, because steel, even weak steel is still relatively really hard.

...is no way I could use his knife sheaths on a field knife.
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He builds them for that, you should drop him a line sometime about his construction methods, while his presentation is extreme, there is an underlying focus on functinality, he takes a lot of care in chosing materials and construction.

There was a thread in the custom form about makers, really high priced ones, and the lack of actual use. I commented that they could of course make field grade pieces - but then again, if you don't need to money wise, and you really like the presentation work ...

-Cliff
 
Another thing about cutting any wild animal's hide is the dirt factor. I haven't had any experience with 'coons but the few coyotes I've skinned in the past were absolutely filthy!
And it's not just surface dirt but dirt that is caked and ground into the hide it seems. Dayumed difficult to cut with about any kind of edge.

As to filed edges there are filed edges and then there are filed edges. When I was a kid, 12 up to early teens, and had only access to my grandpa's broken in half real fine hone I didn't have much of an option but to file the edges on my knives as they would have ruined what was left of his hone in short order.
When I was 12 my dad bought me a nice hatchet and hunting knife and I learned to sharpen them both with a file.
I quickly learned that a draw cut with the file left the best edge and my filed edges would readily shave the fine hair on my arms and the coarser hair on my legs, but in Possum's case it is moot anyway because of the hardness of his really nice Bowie.
I used to be able to get a finer edge with a file than I could with a coarse stone when I finally had access to them.:)

Since I'm mostly a khukuri knut and hang out on the HI Forum mostly I find that a nice polished edge generally works best on them but they're for chopping and generally not for slicing or stabbing.
 
Well, the other night I found myself at the farm again, and decided to see if there were any more coons back in the feed room. Didn't see any in the shed, but went a bit further, and found a nasty ol' possum eating the carcass from this coon I got two nights previous. :barf: He was just behind a little sapling, with about 6 feet of dry weeds between us, so I had to tiptoe closer only when he was crunching on a particularly putrid morsel. My first cut would have been lethal, but he managed to walk out the other side of the tree, so I cut him down with a second stroke. This one went right through him and hit some limestone gravel that was in the dirt; probably from the nearby driveway. It put some tiny dings in the edge, but I doubt they would have even shown up on camera.

And then, yesterday the cows got out in our neighbor's cornfield. We got them back in without much trouble, but then I set to the task of patching up several places in the fence they broke down. Barbed wire is hard enough to work with as is, but it kept catching on little saplings and thorns that were growing in the fenceline. So, the quickest solution was to use my bowie to first clear the underbrush. I also had an old shingle splitting hatchet, but it was far too heavy to get a quick enough swing to sever this tough and thin brush. I often had to cut the tough vegetation right between the wires, and if my blade didn't snick clean through, it would catch and get pulled right into the barbed wire. As a result, I've got several more little dings in the sharpened false edge now. (the false edge works much better on smaller brush such as wild blackberry and multiflora rose, as its gentle concave curve catches the brush rather than letting it slide around the tip. Much like the scythes and sickles of old.)

Again, the damage in both cases was very minor; it only took me a few passes with the coarse stone to fix them.
 
the possum said:
...gentle concave curve catches the brush rather than letting it slide around the tip
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Have you tried a light recurve to the primary edge, it might increase cutting ability on the draw given the cut resistant nature of the hide.

-Cliff
 
Edge retention with coarse edges has been mentioned.
I can agree that a polished edge would be much better for woodwork. Some time ago I was clearing a bunch of small saplings from our favorite shooting spot, and it did seem like the edge got a bit dull fairly quickly.

However, I rarely do that much woodwork with this knife in one session. For it's primary function, hastened dulling from the coarse edge is not a problem. I don't think I've ever had to make more than a dozen cuts on coons in one night, (that I can recall right now) and it lasts long enough to get through that much before I get home. In my situation, edge retention is limited far more by damage from hard objects, such as I showed in my first post. It don't matter whether you've got a polished or coarse edge when ya whack a chunk of concrete; that section of the edge will need resharpening. If a large portion of the edge is damaged that badly, I'll head back to the shop and try to fix it before continuing the "hunt". Such an edge will only wound the critters, at best. If it's only a very small nick, I'll keep going since I still have plenty of sharpened edge to do the job.

Yvsa-
Thank you for chiming in here. I can't say that I've seen dirt as a big factor, as coons are generally pretty clean animals. I'm sure they've got dust in their fur, but I don't recall getting one caked with mud, unless I had just chased him through the pond or ditch. By the way, I'll be replying to your email in a moment. :)

Jeff-
Thanks for the clarification on the spear. That sounds interesting. It's one of those things I doubt I'd carry as standard equipment, since it would be so hard to carry in tight quarters without banging against stuff, but I could leave one sitting by the feed room or grandpa's sweet corn patch, for example. Right now, one niche I can't seem to fill is when the critters are well out of blade range, but are still directly in front of something I don't want to risk shooting. (even with birdshot from a 12 ga.) Like the other night- I was maybe 15-18 yards away from 3 coons that were right in front of the equipment shed. How good of accuracy have you been able to get on targets at that distance?

A Collins 878 or 886 style blade would be likely candidates. The belly of the blade automatically gives you a draw cut as you make your hit. These blades are more pointed than most machetes and have more belly. You would probably want to rework the point. They are light weight to give you a quick swing. You need that with a light target.
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That belly looks nice, but yeah, I'd regrind them into clip points. The point of my bowie is just barely narrow enough to be "acceptable". I also agree that the blade needs to be quick in the hand, but I'm not necessarily sure I'd intentionally go as light as a machete. Unless these are thicker and heavier than average.? At 28 ounces, my new bowie is a quarter pound heavier than my old one, and I'm much happier with its cutting power. The speed is achieved through proper balance. The targets range from 10 to 30 pounds; not sure if you consider that light, but either way the hide is rather tough, so I do need some momentum. On my coon hunting page, I opined that the machetes I tried were too light to carry through the hide, but in retrospect it may have actually been a balance problem or something else. We do have several fodder knives around the farm, so you've convinced me to give them another try. (I'll use the carcasses after they're already down.) Usually when I miss a critter, it's more because of poor hand/eye coordination and poor visibility rather than a speed or manueverability issue. On the coon I started this thread with, I managed to get in 3 swings before he had run 5 feet.

Serrations were mentioned.
If I get a particularly deep notch in the edge, I may just sharpen the notch like a serration scallop, rather than removing all that steel from the entire edge. It will eventually be removed as the rest of the edge needs sharpening. I do not care for true serrations ala Spyderco, as I mentioned on my coon huntin' page in this thread. "One time I tried to finish a possum with [my Spyderco], I figured those serrations would be great at slashing. I was dead wrong. They hung up on the fibrous skin, stopping the blade cold. I tried again and again, but they just wouldn’t penetrate. They basically just left a nasty abrasion... Another time I tried to finish a possum with it, since it was the biggest knife I had on me. I tried to stick him, but the blade simply refused to go in. I tried again on the shoulder, and only squished the possum. I finally tried a thrust behind the shoulder in the lung area, and after squishing the animal with considerable force, it started to penetrate. But then, after only an inch or so, the serrations got hung up on the ribs, and would not penetrate any further until I pressed hard enough to finally break his ribs off!"
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Have you tried a light recurve to the primary edge, it might increase cutting ability on the draw given the cut resistant nature of the hide.
-Cliff
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Actually, I've been thinking about going that direction on my next big knife. It will likely be quite a while before I have the materials and time to make it though. My current bowie does have a very slight recurve to the main edge, but I didn't necessarily do this to improve cutting ability. It was mainly so I'd just have more steel at the last third of the blade, so I'd have more room to sharpen out all the nicks this area recieves. Thus, it will have a longer useful life before the blade starts looking funny from repeated sharpening.

The blade would need to be recurved, with the tip still trailing upwards though. I wouldn't want to use a sickle shaped blade on coons. Just the other night, after I got the possum I mentioned above, I shot two more coons with my .45, and used the bowie to finish them. I tried using the false edge, but it really catches the target rather than sliding through. Thus, it stops abruptly, jarring my wrist and making a shallow cut. I've seen many people on these forums extol the virtues of the "back cut" with bowies, but I've never seen one do more damage than the main edge. It may be better from the standpoint of tactics though.
 
knifetester said:
I have examined the pictures in this thread in detail, and am very impressed with the way your knife perfromed, especially if this was an inconsistent piece of steel. I'd imagine highly alloyed stainless steels (say S30V, ATS34, BG42 etc, See Cliff Stamp's Strider and Recondo reviews for example) would suffer gross failure under those kinds of impacts stresses, yet your damage was confined to the edge bevel.
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:D ;)
The old bowie I keep talking about breaking was made from ATS-34. (at 57-58 Rc as I recall) Even after I broke and reground it, I tried cutting the legs off our deer for butchering, (it had no problem with the neck) and broke huge scallops out of the edge again. I'd chipped it several times before all this, but nothing serious. I have yet to reeeaaally whack my new bowie in the manner I broke the old knife, but so far it seems to be holding up better.
 
When you get out to 15 yards you need something more accurate than improvised spear contraptions. What you might try is something like wax bullets. The classic example of this is to take a primed .38 Special case and put in about a half load of a fast powder. Shove the case into a block of beeswax that is thick enough to reach down to your powder level. Trim the wax off flush to the case rim. If you fire that out of a long-barreled revolver it will hit with a fair bit of knockdown power, but very little penetration or ricochet. It might slow down your coon until you get to it. It also gums up your rifleling so be sure to clean your barrel before firing any lead ammunition. You would have to play around with the load to get optimum performance. You could also load up a shotgun shell with a wax slug. You would have to have the wax in a plastic shot cup wad and not loose in the shotgun shell. You would also need to play with the load since you don't have much projectile mass to help build up combustion pressure.
 
Jeff-
Me and a buddy always used to shoot these wax bullets (out of my .45) in our apartment at college. We'd use a couple empty pizza or beer boxes for a backstop. I don't have enough faith in their penetrating abilities to try 'em on coons. They were accurate enough at 10 feet, but much beyond that and they'd start skewing off in weird directions. I really don't mean to sound like I'm just shooting down your ideas here, man. I do appreciate the input, and thank you for offering insights I may not have pondered. I do believe the idea does have merit, and have thought about approaching the idea from another angle. Glaser and Magsafe ammo is made with a copper jacket filled with small lead shot, secured with epoxy. The idea is, the round can travel to the target without losing near as much velocity, but upon impact with just about anything, breaks up into tiny fragments- thus basically stopping its penetration. They cost like two bucks per shot though, so I contemplated making my own by melting the lead out of regular hollowpoints, reducing it to lead filings with a rasp, and putting them back into the jacket with wax or something to hold 'em in place. This way I could hit a coon at distance with full power, but the chance of ricochets is practically nill. But once again, I've never got off my butt and really tested them out. (if I didn't spend sooo much time surfin' the web... ;) )
 
When you were shooting wax bullets in your apartment I would bet you were just using primers for propellent. When you add some powder behind them they get more up to speed. When you use a longer shell casing like a .38 Special or a .357 magnum it gives you a further increase in punch compared to a stubby .45 case.

It sounds to me like you might just want to use a .410 shotgun loaded with #9 shot. From close range it should do the trick. The #9 birdshot would be less likely to go through walls. If you wear shooting glasses you should avoid serious harm from ricochets. You could pour some wax into the shells to lump the shot together if you felt like it. You might want to use something like glaziers putty instead.
 
being from canada, ive never had the opportunity to fire a handgun... but somehow (ive read some of your coon hunting accounts) i would have thought a .45 would pack more of a punch.
then again, it could just be that most animals are a lot hardier than a human - i shot a chipmunk in the neck just the other day with a .220 swift and it still made it to the woodpile 20 feet away. its happened on a few occasions, and chipmunks are the size of small rats. (and if anyone thinks that shooting chipmunks is 'cruel', they obviously live in the city: they do an extraordinary amount of damage, chew through wood/fibreglass/plastic, and destroy crops, bulbs and seeds at a terrifying rate).

i second the notion of using a shotgun loaded with shot, however i think it would only be feasible outdoors. inside your farm buildings the last thing you want to do is start blasting away with a shotgun - youll just do more damage and contaminate more food that way.
is there any other option besides shooting them that would work? such as poison, repellants, dogs, etc?

perhaps you could build some sortof poison stations, which would only be accessible by raccoon-sized animals or smaller. at the rate you are killing them it sounds like you have an infestation on your hands, so if simply shooting them isnt doing the trick perhaps coupling it with poison would keep the population down.

(edited: changed HTML to BBcode, ugh)
 
I'd imagine that shooting high powered rounds at small animals, you are just zipping the bullet through, not dumping any of the kinetic energy.

With a .45 on coons, there is enough resistance to open up a hollow point and you still have a big wound cavity (bullet channel).

With very high velocity bullets, kinetic energy dump results in hydrostatioc shock, which is devastatingly effective as a means of causing death or incapacitation.

Fast expanding (varmint) rounds at a high velocity (think .223, .220 swift, .22-250, etc) should be devestating on coons, as they are on groundhogs, but there are concerns with overpentration, richochet, etc.

I am amazed at how tough Possum reports Coons to be. My only experience with coons is cleaning up the remains after my dogs have gotten them (and cleaning up the dogs wounds as well.)

That is a rather simplsitic layman's view, people spend a career or two studying ballistics and such.
 
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