Pins and their depth on traditional knives

glocktenman

glocktenman

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I was reading an article about a GEC Small Jack #25 w/ ebony wood handles. Dated Sept 22, 2016. Author listed is Tony Sculimbrene.

The author writes "But it is not QUITE in that top tier. For example, the bolts on the handle scales on by Canal Street Cutlery Boy's Knife are 100% flush. Not just flush, but fingernail flush. Without looking you could never tell where the brass pin ends and the G10 begins. Not so here. In fact, two of the bolts seem to stand out from the handle, maybe even on purpose."

Looking at two GEC 38s I own, I see four pins. One lower center pin holds the handle, liner and spring in place. Three others keep the handle and the liner together. The one with jigged bone handle has the pins flush or very close to flush with the handle material. The other with shaped micarta has the bottom center pin smoth with the shaped material. The pins on the ends are flush and the top center pin is inset.

My first thought was that the author wasn't very keen about traditional knives and their making and was identifying an issue that in fact, was not an issue with the knife. My second though was that my understanding of the pin depth in the handle material was wrong.

Are the pins not set based upon the handle material and any shaping the handles may require?

I'm including the picture of the #25 and the related Canal Street knife from the article.

What do you all think?

gec25pin.jpg canalstreetboys knife.jpg
 
I think it's a little of column A and a little of column B. The two pins that are domed and sunken on that 25 are pinned in place before the covers are shaped. They're spun on with a pin spinner, which is basically a bit on a drill press to put a domed top on the pin to affix the scales. The other two pins go through the backspring and are peened and sanded flush.

It kind of bugs me... I don't see any reason why GEC would use two separate finishing techniques for the pins. I guess maybe they worry about cracking the thin material on the center pin... I don't care too much if they're all spun or all flush, but consistency would be nice (please excuse me while I put on my Nomex pants). GEC also has a habit of going a little crazy with the pin spinner in wood covers. The pins on my 38 whittler are almost comically deep. The holes have filled in with pocket lint they're so deep. That said, I think the author of that blog is not knowledgeable on traditionals, and I've stopped following his posts as my interest in modern knives has waned :)
 
What's even more perplexing is that about half of my small collection of GEC knives have both pin types as mentioned while the others appear to be all spun without being countersunk to any great degree. It bothers me too in a knife of this price range.
 
This has been talked about before, and rightly. Many GEC knives will have one sink-hole pin, notably on the centre pin and this is particularly with wood and micartas, but all scales seem prone to it. It might be that with the centre pin they fear cracking? Whatever, it looks odd, unbalanced and not well finished to have say 3 flush or domed pins and one sunk one. Of course, there'll be the usual voices raised that quit moaning it's a cosmetic issue, use the hell out of it!! Not good enough when CASE Queen et al. very often have all pins flush or domed, there will of course, be exceptions. Curiously, GEC certainly can do all pins domed and I've got several knives of theirs like this, the all steel construction seem not to have this problem. I simply prefer all the pins to look the same, sunk,domed or flush-not a mixture. Sink holes look horrible and they get fouled up, but some people don't mind it.
 
I’ve noticed it, but I just thought it was part of the tradition of construction. It doesn’t bother me and I don’t think it creates a bad aesthetic since the pins that are flush in the pins that are sunk are consistent from knife to knife from what I can tell.
 
Case had done it for decades and I don't think I have ever heard it come up in conversation until GEC came along. Most of this has been previously discussed, but here goes.

The slab pins (those that simply hold the slab to the liner) are supplied in certain lengths with a small hollow end. So they are inserted and a sort of "spreader" tool spreads the liner side to get a snug fit; a lot the same as peening. Nothing is done on the external side of the pin. Thus, since the pins come a set length, where they sit on the surface will depend on the height of the handle material - as the head of the pin with always be the same distance for the liner without regard to the depth of the handle material. Although the handle material is originally cut for a close fit. This eliminates a lot of pin stock clipping, peening, polishing work; not to mention the possibility for pin cracks during the peening. It really does save a significant amount of time.

The nail pins (those that go thru and thru) are stock that is place and peened or spun on both sides. These can be clipped to length and ground to fit before spinning or peening. These require a good bit of pressure and will result in cracks if not very careful. Typically smooth handles are peened and buffed; rough handles are spun.

It is a long conversations that has been had in several places. But most companies that use pin stock and cut to length, then buff to match - are defunct. Not saying this one preference broke them, but each company has to make their own decisions where to spend their time and money in order to be viable in an industry trying to leave them behind. GEC has decided to use a method that has been in use for decades in order to invest their time put into a knife in the more critical aspects. It would be great if they all matched perfectly, but the price of quality knives is getting to the point I don't think we need to look for ways to make them more expensive.

I don't know the reviewer you mentioned, but a lot of reviewers have shown up since opinions became profitable. Experience is not required... The easy way to guess at the intent of a blogger, youtuber, etc. is to look around their content and see how many advertisers exist. Many of them actually pick the most popular product of the day to dish on, thus getting them more publicity.
 
Hyped mediocrity is my expectation. GEC knives are just as ok as Case’s regular production. Pins are randomly domed or not. Can’t expect perfection.
 
knifeswapper said:
Case had done it for decades and I don't think I have ever heard it come up in conversation until GEC came along. Most of this has been previously discussed, but here goes.

The slab pins (those that simply hold the slab to the liner) are supplied in certain lengths with a small hollow end. So they are inserted and a sort of "spreader" tool spreads the liner side to get a snug fit; a lot the same as peening. Nothing is done on the external side of the pin. Thus, since the pins come a set length, where they sit on the surface will depend on the height of the handle material - as the head of the pin with always be the same distance for the liner without regard to the depth of the handle material. Although the handle material is originally cut for a close fit. This eliminates a lot of pin stock clipping, peening, polishing work; not to mention the possibility for pin cracks during the peening. It really does save a significant amount of time.

The nail pins (those that go thru and thru) are stock that is place and peened or spun on both sides. These can be clipped to length and ground to fit before spinning or peening. These require a good bit of pressure and will result in cracks if not very careful. Typically smooth handles are peened and buffed; rough handles are spun.

It is a long conversations that has been had in several places. But most companies that use pin stock and cut to length, then buff to match - are defunct. Not saying this one preference broke them, but each company has to make their own decisions where to spend their time and money in order to be viable in an industry trying to leave them behind. GEC has decided to use a method that has been in use for decades in order to invest their time put into a knife in the more critical aspects. It would be great if they all matched perfectly, but the price of quality knives is getting to the point I don't think we need to look for ways to make them more expensive.

I don't know the reviewer you mentioned, but a lot of reviewers have shown up since opinions became profitable. Experience is not required... The easy way to guess at the intent of a blogger, youtuber, etc. is to look around their content and see how many advertisers exist. Many of them actually pick the most popular product of the day to dish on, thus getting them more publicity.
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Good explanation.
 
GEC can do better, because they have in the past. It tells me that the change was purely to save money. These two #53 Cubans are from 2008, and show the beautifully domed pins which are possible, on all four pins.

bd6zVrv.jpg


I believe the change occurred around 2009, which is also when they stopped using Culpepper's bone and began using their own. Continued upswing of sales, I believe, caused them to change some processes to keep up with the increased production.
 
jakemex said:
Hyped mediocrity is my expectation. GEC knives are just as ok as Case’s regular production. Pins are randomly domed or not. Can’t expect perfection.
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Your expectations are that high?! :)

I agree. To expect perfection in any production knife - no matter what company made it - is not really very realistic.

I have never owned a "perfect" knife (and likely never will) so I may be mistaken, but is it even possible for a knife to be "perfect" to everyone when it comes to construction?
I mean some people want a light pull (for example, I like the pull on a Buck 301. Others complain it is "too light".) while others want a "8" or heavier pull.

Fit and Finish, of course falls under "construction".
Most, if not all of my knives, be they Case, Buck, Colt, Schrade/Imperial, Rough Rider, or an antique knife from a now defunct maker (110 year old Robeson, for example) have flawless cover to bolsters joining.
Others, again, regardless of age or maker, have slight gaps where the covers meet the bolsters.

I have pre-WW II knives with gaps, and without gaps.
Any production knife can (and do) have minor cosmetic "defects" to include gaps between the liners and springs, not precisely centered blades, etc. that do not affect the function of the knife.

To be honest, I've never noticed if all the pins were the same on any of my knives.
As long as the pin is not digging into my hand with a sharp edge or point, it is (to me) a non-issue.
 
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Also recall the difference between production knives that rely entirely on automated machining and production that involves humans handiwork. I own knives from a French maker who has himself and two assistants. They put out several hundred knives per quarter and do most of it by hand. Sometimes the “imperfections” are part of what makes a product “handmade.”

Makers who only make a few dozen knives per quarter can afford to be painstaking and the price usually reflects that.
 
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jakemex said:
Hyped mediocrity is my expectation. GEC knives are just as ok as Case’s regular production. Pins are randomly domed or not. Can’t expect perfection.
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I have to respectfully disagree. I have purchased 6 Case knives in the past year, all CV models, and not a single one is near the quality of my GEC knives. Case knives are very sharp due to the hollow grind.

While many Case knives are about half the price of a similar GEC model, the drop in quality is obvious. Not just finish, but action as well.

I have no problem with the pins on my GEC knives, and they are about 300% better than the pins on a Case.
 
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I just looked at a handful of my knives - 3 GEC (12, 15, 68), 8 or so Case, several Queens, and a Canal Street. All of the pins are nicely domed or buffed flush to the handle material. The only one where the domed pin was a little below handle depth was the Canal Street, which has stag handles, and even so they were not significantly recessed.

I don't like the looks of the deeply recessed pins myself, but so far I don't recall having seen it on any of mine.
 
Focusing on GEC, it looks like the jigged bone models has them nice and flush or domed. The wood or micarta material handles has two of four inset and it's the ones used to hold the handle and liner together. It has to be a production process and I'm not fully sure it has to do with cost cutting.

How do the pins on the acrylic handles GECs look?
 
Randy, my most recent one has three pretty flush and one a little sunken.

aTXtyY5.jpg


Same with this #25, the top middle pin is a little short (sunk) on both sides.

pY98aGE.jpg
 
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