Pins and their depth on traditional knives

knifeswapper said:
Yes. The current process leads to much less pin crack occurrence; thus saves money on selling as seconds or scrapping altogether. My personal preference is a bit countersunk versus a large spinner diameter or mushroomed pins, but that is purely my preference.
Click to expand...

And that folks should explain everything!!!!

I must look as though I have shares in GEC as I do stand up for them a lot- the only reason I do so is that GEC are a fantastic company who produce very good knives at a good price - Thats a fact, and I find it annoying when people want and demand absolute perfection for around $100, why don't these people approach Tony Bose or any other well know Custom Knife Maker and ask him to build them a knife for that then? Because they know they will be told where to go very quickly.

I know that I call a plumber, Roofer, Builder - I have lost that when they drive up my drive before any work starts, I guess it's keeping things in perspective, and some don't have the ability to be able to make fair comparisons or have realistic expectations.
GEC is a business and they produce knives on a large scale that have a good all round quality in build and material, its not going to be perfect and it doesn't have to be classed Top Tier.
Knifeswapper answered all in one sentence.
 
Campbellclanman said:
GEC is a business and they produce knives on a large scale that have a good all round quality in build and material, its not going to be perfect and it doesn't have to be classed Top Tier.
.
Click to expand...

Not to be argumentative, but your sentence above is problematic to my way of thinking. Case is what I would call a modern "large scale" manufacturer. The average Case knife retails for what, $60 - 75. GEC is a much smaller shop and does not by any stretch manufacture the number of knives that Case does. GEC's knives by comparison retail for what, $125 - 175 on average. To me, $150 is alot to pay for a knife and I expect more from them, compared to my expectations from Case. That is why I hold GEC to a far higher standard, and I have a MAJOR problem with the sunken pins.
 
Lansky I don’t think you are being argumentative at all Sir.
Case do produce knives in a larger scale - GEC produce smaller runs - and this is why I believe they are running a smarter business.
Cases quality isn’t anywhere near what it used to be in the 60’ and 70’s in fact no where near - the number of knives Case makes doesn’t come into the equation and price is a subject of where no one is going to be in full agreement - ever because different people have different expectations on the whole and nothing will change this.

But let’s look at what you are saying - Case don’t Make the same quality Knife- so I just don’t understand why you compare them to GEC.

Comparisons must be fair and in an equal basis of quality and price.

GEC have a World wide reputation for making extremely good knives there’s a reason why they sell out almost immediately that speaks in volume by itself - either GEC make a good knife? or they have a lot of knife experts fooled. In my way of thinking your view is not a fair comparison, and I am most certainly not trying to be argumentative- we just have different views - and this is what makes Knife Collecting so diverse.

We are allowed to have our pet hates in our tastes and I totally respect what you are saying - but it seems the the bigger percentage of the knife buying population think that GEC are on to something good.
Sunken pins don’t bother me- knowing the reason for a pin being sunken and GEC’s reasoning behind this also helps one understand.

So if the GEC Knife was $70 to $80 it would be more acceptable?
To me if I didn’t like a particular fault/ defect - whatever you may describe it - It would bug me whether I paid $80 or $150 for it.
This reminds me of a time when I sold a Bowie Knife - I think then it was a $400 Knife- anyway it was a very well described Knife and a good one - the buyer got back to me upon receiving it ( I knew this buyer ) and said that he wasn’t happy with the knife - but if I refunded $200 he would be more comfortable/ I told him to send that Knife back and I would refund immediately because price wouldn’t fix the Knife- as the Knife is the Knife, he never sent it back.
 
"Like I have asked- who in the Cutler World is top tier then? - remembering to keep the value and materials involved on an even scale when comparing against GEC! Anyone?"

Interesting question!
 
glocktenman said:
"Like I have asked- who in the Cutler World is top tier then? - remembering to keep the value and materials involved on an even scale when comparing against GEC! Anyone?"

Interesting question!
Click to expand...
Comparison of Böker Barlow Classic Gold to GEC #25. Böker: directly from böker 110€, cheaper from a reseller. GEC from a reseller: 110-150€

Scales: Böker - Ironwood, GEC - cheapest Version; Micarta
Steel: Böker - 440C, GEC - 1095
Both with nickle silver bolsters
Böker - Long Pull, GEC - Nick
The Böker has a more intricate shield but not fitted as well as the GEC

With the Böker the Pins are all flush, GEC not

So overall it definetly is possible to stay in business with flush pins(or all sunk for that matter)
 
SV-97 said:
Comparison of Böker Barlow Classic Gold to GEC #25. Böker: directly from böker 110€, cheaper from a reseller. GEC from a reseller: 110-150€

Scales: Böker - Ironwood, GEC - cheapest Version; Micarta
Steel: Böker - 440C, GEC - 1095
Both with nickle silver bolsters
Böker - Long Pull, GEC - Nick
The Böker has a more intricate shield but not fitted as well as the GEC

With the Böker the Pins are all flush, GEC not

So overall it definetly is possible to stay in business with flush pins(or all sunk for that matter)
Click to expand...

If you were just pointing out that the pins are flush, it is undeniable. But you seem to compare the knives overall. Boker's knives are manufactured with a lot more automation.

With so few companies making traditional knives, we should just be happy to have companies still making traditional knives in the USA and Germany. There are so few in the USA that you can count the companies on one hand... actually, I'd say it's mostly down to 2... Case and GEC... with a limited selection of traditional patterns from Buck. I never see knives from Bear and Utica/Kutmaster but you could count them too... if you can find them.

For comparison, start around 2:40 to see the blades (the GEC video starts with the blades). I don't think the video shows the covers being pinned... though I may have missed it.

 
Last edited:
SV-97 said:
Comparison of Böker Barlow Classic Gold to GEC #25. Böker: directly from böker 110€, cheaper from a reseller. GEC from a reseller: 110-150€

Scales: Böker - Ironwood, GEC - cheapest Version; Micarta
Steel: Böker - 440C, GEC - 1095
Both with nickle silver bolsters
Böker - Long Pull, GEC - Nick
The Böker has a more intricate shield but not fitted as well as the GEC

With the Böker the Pins are all flush, GEC not

So overall it definetly is possible to stay in business with flush pins(or all sunk for that matter)
Click to expand...
Is the Boker shield pinned?
 
To some extent, the Boker example is not exactly an apples to apples comparison, especially depending on what you look for in a knife. If you’re purely comparing the two from a finished product, fit and finish standpoint, and if your personal preference is flush pins, then yes, the Boker wins.

However, from Boker’s own website description of their barlow, they state, “these blades are certainly state-of-the-art but don't necessarily exude vintage charm.”

For many, the appeal of what GEC is doing is exactly what the Boker is missing...the vintage charm in both the manufacturing process and the end result.

It just boils down to what you find personally important and/or appealing. Me? I have Bokers and GEC, and I can appreciate what both offer.
 
Astronaut FX said:
To some extent, the Boker example is not exactly an apples to apples comparison, especially depending on what you look for in a knife. If you’re purely comparing the two from a finished product, fit and finish standpoint, and if your personal preference is flush pins, then yes, the Boker wins.

However, from Boker’s own website description of their barlow, they state, “these blades are certainly state-of-the-art but don't necessarily exude vintage charm.”

For many, the appeal of what GEC is doing is exactly what the Boker is missing...the vintage charm in both the manufacturing process and the end result.

It just boils down to what you find personally important and/or appealing. Me? I have Bokers and GEC, and I can appreciate what both offer.
Click to expand...


Although I agree with what you say, I think you are taking the quote out of context. It's not worded the best but I think they were trying to say the gold etch on the "classic" knives has more "vintage charm" than the laser etch on other knives.

"With our Classic Gold series, we are offering a deliberate counterpoint to blades of a more modern make; with their laser engraved logo, these blades are certainly state-of-the-art but don't necessarily exude vintage charm. For the Classic Gold series, we came back to classic craftsmanship, finishing the blades with genuine classic gold etching that used to be common for high-quality knives."
 
supratentorial said:
Although I agree with what you say, I think you are taking the quote out of context. It's not worded the best but I think they were trying to say the gold etch on the "classic" knives has more "vintage charm" than the laser etch on other knives.

"With our Classic Gold series, we are offering a deliberate counterpoint to blades of a more modern make; with their laser engraved logo, these blades are certainly state-of-the-art but don't necessarily exude vintage charm. For the Classic Gold series, we came back to classic craftsmanship, finishing the blades with genuine classic gold etching that used to be common for high-quality knives."
Click to expand...

That’s a fair point. I may have read that a bit too quickly. But I would counter with the fact that I do own a Boker 100501 Barlow, which is similar to the one we’re comparing. And while I think it’s a great knife, and I like it a great deal, overall, even though it is built on a vintage design, it truly does not have the same vintage vibe or charm that any of my GEC knives have. The Boker is clearly a modern build, whereas most GEC knives have more of a vintage flavor.
 
Astronaut FX said:
That’s a fair point. I may have read that a bit too quickly. But I would counter with the fact that I do own a Boker 100501 Barlow, which is similar to the one we’re comparing. And while I think it’s a great knife, and I like it a great deal, overall, even though it is built on a vintage design, it truly does not have the same vintage vibe or charm that any of my GEC knives have. The Boker is clearly a modern build, whereas most GEC knives have more of a vintage flavor.
Click to expand...

Yep, I agree with what you say. I tried to show the difference with the manufacturing videos. You can also see it just looking at the blades. But like you also said, they're all good knives.

114941det3.jpg
 
Having higher expectations for a more expensive knife is a reasonable mindset, but expecting to have your custom preferences satisfied by a factory made knife isn’t realistic.

There are some pretty cut and dry standards for quality in the knife world and more often than not GEC is at the top of the list in terms of quality. Not liking sunken pins is simply an aesthetic complaint.

If you are willing to spend more money to have GEC change their process and not sink the pins then maybe spend your money on a custom and get someone who does exactly what YOU want, but expecting a company to stretch your $125.00 into a “custom” quality knife isn’t reasonable.

It appears to me that the hatred of popularity and success in this thread rivals the hatred of the actual sunken pins.
 
The Point I was trying to make was in response to someone earlier in this thread saying that it's cost prohibitive to only use flush/sunken pins. The point essentially was that there are people doing it with lots of success. That Böker's manufacturing is way more automated is definetly a fair point though.

LastRodeo LastRodeo I'll check the shield when I'm home but I'd wager it's glued.

I'd definetly agree with you that GECs feel uniquely "old-timey" though that extends to knives that actually are old-timey and don't feel like GECs (imo of course)
 
Right off the bat you can see that the boker blade doesn't even come close to matching up with the spring when it's opened. Also there doesn't appear to be any type of swedge. On a GEC you'd find a cut swedge on pretty much any blade with a long pull, and a drawn swedge on a blade with a nick. It's that extra attention to detail that put GEC where it is today. The sunk pins are generally the cover pins. Those are set lengths, you have to get them deep enough so that the end of the pin protrudes from the other end of the liner for proper spreading. Perhaps they could order them a bit longer, but I have no idea what's available out there any more. On the pins near the bolsters, if you set the head a bit above the height of the bolster, it should come out even with the cover when finished. If the pin is too short you have to go deeper, resulting in a sunken head. The problem is the cover pins that they install in the top center of the handles. The handle thicknesses can vary greatly, especially the solid materials that are contoured. You can't get them flush because the pin head is parallel to the liner while the cover at that point is slanted downward, and if the cover is thick at that point there's no choice but to go deep in order to peen the end to the liner. The butt pins and center spring pins are different. Those are cut to length while the knife is being assembled. On smooth handles those pins are peined flush with the covers, which is why you almost never see them sunken in. On contoured handles such as jigged bone or stag, they're spun, which depending on how rough the surface is may result in a bit of a hole, but you find that from any manufacturer. The surface needs to be parallel with the liners to spin the pin properly, so the hole is counterbored until there's a flat spot to match the width of the spun pin head.I think on some of the smaller patterns such as the 25, GEC could eliminate the center cover pin altogether, it seems to be overkill on a short handle.

Aside from the Bose collaborations at Case I don't think there's anyone out there that can match GEC's total portfolio quality wise.

Eric
 
Last edited:
Eric
Thank you for coming in with your view on things. Coming from such an esteemed Cutler as yourself it was extremely interesting reading your post- we are lucky to have your opinion - so thank you for that.
I am in complete agreement ( as you could possibly tell from previous posts ) on your stance where GRC stands today as a Quality Cutlery Manufacturer.

Personal tastes will always differ and bring forward such vast expectations and opinions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top