Pins and their depth on traditional knives

[knifeswapper]

Cover Pins (pins solely holding covers on): set length pins that are domed externally and easily spread internally. These may appear to be flush on some smooth slabs as they are buffed to the ends with the rest of the stock. But start out same. For slabs that can be made mostly uniform by GEC (jigged bone), they will appear domed and sitting a bit proud of slab because the slab can be made to fit exact thickness front to back. For variable height slabs (stag, primitive, etc) the slabs will be drilled and countersunk to certain depth from liner; so if stag is thicker in one spot, pin will be sunk deeper.

Nails (pin stock thru frame): these are from lengths of pin stock. They will be domed on uneven surfaces or buffed flush on smooth surfaces.

There may be cases where these expectations are not correct; but I can't think of an example.

Obviously GEC could use lengths of pin stock everywhere; they don't because it is more time efficient, has less failure over time, and causes fewer initial pin cracks to use set length pre-domed pins for slabs.

 

[Randy3000]

Here is a knife with proud center domed through pin and flush scale end pins.

Peening pins carries a risk of cracking the handle material. When a pin is countersunk, the hammer gets a lot closer to the handle material on each strike, and so carries more risk. The small end pins are easy to just sand flush when sanding the bone flush to the bolsters. The center pin is harder to sand flush since it could sand through the dye in the bone and you get an uneven colorarion across the scale. In the pic above, none of the scale was sanded down to the whitish bone on the ends, but there are many other knives where this is done.

On many knives, especially thicker knives with 2 or more back springs, the handle scales can be extremely thin. Typically, they will be thicker in the middle and very thin on the ends. On these knives, there just simply isnt room to countersink the end pins, and doming them or not is up to the maker what they think is best.

Personally, if the shield is domed and sits proud, i would want the center pin to also be domed and proud. If the shield is countersunk to flush then i would want the center pin the same. I always prefer end pins flush and flat.

 

[Astronaut FX]

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having personal preferences and/or expectations regarding various aspects of knives. At the same time, it’s important to be realistic and remember that these are tools.

Some people view them solely as tools, and use them as tools, and limit their expectations to aspects related to functionality. In other words, if the knife holds together as expected, is it truly an issue if there’s a little bit of variability in the pin finishing?

Some people view them solely as collectibles, and rarely use them beyond fondling and photographing. In some cases, the expectations in this scenario involve creating importance around details that are not integral to the functionality of the tool’s intended purpose. Taking this stance is not “wrong” so to speak. But it does run a bit astray when public obsessing over these details starts to influence others’ opinions around a particular brand. People are sometimes easily led.

As an example, I lived about a half century without ever giving consideration to, or even hearing people discuss blade centering, walk and talk, pull strength, pin finishing variations, etc. Prior to the internet community telling me how “important” these factors are, I never found myself with a knife in my hand approaching a cutting task thinking, “I can’t make this cut, the snap doesn’t sound quite right, and the centering is off a hair.”

But now that I’m a collector (let’s be honest, collector = appreciator/hoarder), I find myself considering these factors, and then having to remind myself they’re tools. As a result, I allow myself to appreciate some variances as “character.”

GEC knives, at least initially from dealers, are priced at what I’d consider at the tool price point rather than the collectible price point. So I think it may be a bit unfair to categorize them as lacking in quality based on expecting something beyond their intended functionality.

YMMV

 

[Randy3000]

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having personal preferences and/or expectations regarding various aspects of knives. At the same time, it’s important to be realistic and remember that these are tools.

Some people view them solely as tools, and use them as tools, and limit their expectations to aspects related to functionality. In other words, if the knife holds together as expected, is it truly an issue if there’s a little bit of variability in the pin finishing?

Some people view them solely as collectibles, and rarely use them beyond fondling and photographing. In some cases, the expectations in this scenario involve creating importance around details that are not integral to the functionality of the tool’s intended purpose. Taking this stance is not “wrong” so to speak. But it does run a bit astray when public obsessing over these details starts to influence others’ opinions around a particular brand. People are sometimes easily led.

As an example, I lived about a half century without ever giving consideration to, or even hearing people discuss blade centering, walk and talk, pull strength, pin finishing variations, etc. Prior to the internet community telling me how “important” these factors are, I never found myself with a knife in my hand approaching a cutting task thinking, “I can’t make this cut, the snap doesn’t sound quite right, and the centering is off a hair.”

But now that I’m a collector (let’s be honest, collector = appreciator/hoarder), I find myself considering these factors, and then having to remind myself they’re tools. As a result, I allow myself to appreciate some variances as “character.”

GEC knives, at least initially from dealers, are priced at what I’d consider at the tool price point rather than the collectible price point. So I think it may be a bit unfair to categorize them as lacking in quality based on expecting something beyond their intended functionality.

YMMV

While i completely agree that all knives, even collector knives, should be built in a way they can function well as a tool, the obsession over minutes details like blade centering and walk and talk are not exactly trivial. These sorts of minor details exhibit levels of craftsmanship and design.

Take a 4 blade congress knife that you can open each blade independently, and each blade has essentially the same pull, same feel when opening, all backsprings are flush in all 3 blade positions for each blade, and there is no blade rub. That is a level of craftsmanship rarely seen and should be respected a great deal.

Now pins being countersunk, domed or not, etc now that is just pure personal preference and has little indication of crasftmanship.

 

[Will Power]

GEC can do better, because they have in the past. It tells me that the change was purely to save money. These two #53 Cubans are from 2008, and show the beautifully domed pins which are possible, on all four pins.

I believe the change occurred around 2009, which is also when they stopped using Culpepper's bone and began using their own. Continued upswing of sales, I believe, caused them to change some processes to keep up with the increased production.

Exactly what I was talking about Jeff, excellent example.

Here's a Half Whitt with very nicely done domed pins all round.

In contrast, this 73 Osage has a sink-hole centre pin which I think looks awful in comparison t to the other finishes. Either all sunk, all flat or all domed is my preference but domed/flat is OK, preferable to any sink holes.
So people say it's just a tool it's just a production knife, well where does this reasoning stop? Why bother considering if a knife is beautiful to look at at all? Why even think about chosing scale materials as it's the same knife plastic or stag? To me looks are important here and they do show an attempt to produce harmony and consistency to a knife. Do you think cars or watches are just things to travel in or tell the time? Pedantically yes, but aesthetics is what appears to distinguish us as sentient beings from other animals.

 

[brownshoe]

For me, I like flush pins the best, but do like domed pins in many knives. Domed pivot pins make it easy to adjust blade action when the knife gets worn. I hate sunk pins, think they look cheap, guess I was right Seems it also takes less skill than a well placed flush pin. Plus sunken pins attract crap and are hard to clean.

 

[Campbellclanman]

I think each and all have interesting points.

Schrade, Camillus, Canal St, Queen have all bowed and broken and succumbed to modern day business pressures of which I am sure the Chinese manufacturing has a lot to answer for.

Everyone is up in arms when these companies die - for so many good reasons.
Can I use GEC for a great example here please....
For around $100 you get a GEC which will last you, your child, your grandchildren and your great grandchildren - everything on these knives aren’t perfect - but pretty darned close!!! Myself after owning many GEC’s to say they are close or very close to Custom standard is not an exaggeration.

What irks me is when I hear comments at times” for $100 that Knife better be perfect” ... wow!

I think that we are extremely lucky to have something So good like GEC surviving and doing well.
A fair counter balance is that you can buy a Chinese made knife for such and such - but what’s really the cost of that?

Pin depths to me aren’t significant - over recessing when Spinning a pin is more detrimental to a knife if you ask me, OR a proud pin that catches.

When I’m balancing the cost of a knife- looking at the complete package - Pin depth doesn’t come into my train of thought - IF? I was paying $1500 to $3500 for a Custom then I would definitely look at that package differently.
I think a fair comment that I would say is look at the package of the whole Knife, is it hand made? What materials? What cost? And then be realistic with your expectations.

 

[MerryMadMonk]

This is a lively (and interesting) discussion once again.

I haven't seen sunken pins like this....

on any other pocket knives I own (more than I care to admit ) ... spanning many brands and many decades.

Someone will have to show me.

If it means paying $5-10 more per knife to make the "sink holes" go away, I'm willing. (Speaking only for myself, of course ).

 

[oldtymer]

This is a lively (and interesting) discussion once again.

I haven't seen sunken pins like this....

on any other pocket knives I own (more than I care to admit ) ... spanning many brands and many decades.

Someone will have to show me.

If it means paying $5-10 more per knife to make the "sink holes" go away, I'm willing. (Speaking only for myself, of course ).

At the price point these sold for assembly like this is inexcusable, IMHO

 

[knifeswapper]

I haven't seen sunken pins like this....on any other pocket knives I own (more than I care to admit ) ... spanning many brands and many decades.

Someone will have to show me.

You just need to get out more Every time this topic comes up I go grab a couple, usually they are stag - but this is what was quickly available. I could round up dozens, but have to get out and brush-hog while it's cool.

I picked these up within arms reach - both more than 2 decades old from THE pre-2000 collectible knife maker and nary a complaint heard until GEC did it....

 

[jakemex]

Still hyped mediocrity. Nothing special for their price point. USA made is a plus keeping Americans working. Glad opinions,though varied, can be discussed here still. I buy what I like etc. GEC or not.
I’m not standing breathlessly waiting for the next hyped GEC release.
Supply n Demand...

 

[JohnDF]

Sunken pins don't bother me as long as they aren't too deep.

 

[Pomsbz]

Don't like them. In fact bothered the heck out of me with my GEC knives.

 

[waynorth]

I think each and all have interesting points.

Schrade, Camillus, Canal St, Queen have all bowed and broken and succumbed to modern day business pressures of which I am sure the Chinese manufacturing has a lot to answer for.

Everyone is up in arms when these companies die - for so many good reasons.
Can I use GEC for a great example here please....
For around $100 you get a GEC which will last you, your child, your grandchildren and your great grandchildren - everything on these knives aren’t perfect - but pretty darned close!!! Myself after owning many GEC’s to say they are close or very close to Custom standard is not an exaggeration.

What irks me is when I hear comments at times” for $100 that Knife better be perfect” ... wow!

I think that we are extremely lucky to have something So good like GEC surviving and doing well.
A fair counter balance is that you can buy a Chinese made knife for such and such - but what’s really the cost of that?

Pin depths to me aren’t significant - over recessing when Spinning a pin is more detrimental to a knife if you ask me, OR a proud pin that catches.

When I’m balancing the cost of a knife- looking at the complete package - Pin depth doesn’t come into my train of thought - IF? I was paying $1500 to $3500 for a Custom then I would definitely look at that package differently.
I think a fair comment that I would say is look at the package of the whole Knife, is it hand made? What materials? What cost? And then be realistic with your expectations.

I can't add any more to what Duncan has stated here! Nice summation, my friend!!!
Also, CK Mike!! Well addressed!

 

[brownshoe]

I think each and all have interesting points.

Schrade, Camillus, Canal St, Queen have all bowed and broken and succumbed to modern day business pressures of which I am sure the Chinese manufacturing has a lot to answer for.

Everyone is up in arms when these companies die - for so many good reasons.
Can I use GEC for a great example here please....
For around $100 you get a GEC which will last you, your child, your grandchildren and your great grandchildren - everything on these knives aren’t perfect - but pretty darned close!!! Myself after owning many GEC’s to say they are close or very close to Custom standard is not an exaggeration.

What irks me is when I hear comments at times” for $100 that Knife better be perfect” ... wow!

I think that we are extremely lucky to have something So good like GEC surviving and doing well.
A fair counter balance is that you can buy a Chinese made knife for such and such - but what’s really the cost of that?

Pin depths to me aren’t significant - over recessing when Spinning a pin is more detrimental to a knife if you ask me, OR a proud pin that catches.

When I’m balancing the cost of a knife- looking at the complete package - Pin depth doesn’t come into my train of thought - IF? I was paying $1500 to $3500 for a Custom then I would definitely look at that package differently.
I think a fair comment that I would say is look at the package of the whole Knife, is it hand made? What materials? What cost? And then be realistic with your expectations.

I like the expression "Don't buy no ugly knife." The first thing one sees before a knife is opened are those ugly pins. To me that trumps USA hand made...makes me "look at that package differently." Queen, Canal Street, Schrade and Camillus did not fail due to flush vs. sunken pins.

 

[Pt-Luso]

 

[Pt-Luso]

 

[jakemex]

The “new guy” had problems with pins the day this was born.

 

[Pt-Luso]

The previous ones are interiore and deep and now these are salient...

 

[knifeswapper]

I would rather have a sunk pin than one spun well below the surface - doubling the size of the ruined stag...