Pins and their depth on traditional knives

Campbellclanman said:
that faulty GEC would be a rarity jakemix, every Cutler company does this ( have sunken pins at times )- Im not too sure why GEC is getting the finger pointed at being the only one with sunken pins?... I think things should be kept into perspective here- a Sunken pin is not a fault, its a minor flaw - theres a big difference, and I can line up many knives with spun pins, sunken pins- from the broad range of past Very esteemed Cutlers - its a knife thing.
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Some people think that sunken pins are a major flaw. They don't look good..."Don't buy no ugly knife." Sunken pins are enough for some people (obviously not you or most GEC lovers) to pass on buying a knife. GEC is getting the "finger pointed at being the only one with sunken pins" because GEC knives are marketed as a premium product and sunken pins are a cost-cutting technique, i.e. not a premium product.

The Winchester knives are a Queen product, not GEC. Some would say that before the Queen staff left to form GEC, Queen was at the top of its game, with both high end and economy lines. GEC still doesn't make knives that match Queen's top-of-the-line Schatt and Morgan product. Think ATS34 steel, fancy bolsters and checkered pearl handles :)
 
When comparing, you need to compare apples with apples, not all Queen Knives were that good and from many very experienced knife folk I hear Queen was at its best when Bill Howard was there, and its needless to say that when Queens staff left to join GEC that they were at the top of the game? perhaps- but that was before GEC Started - Sure... Queen did make SOME good knives - but all of Queens Knives werent top-of-the line like the ATS 34 with Checkered Pearl handles, in fact Queen has a terrible record for Quality Control and on top of that sending out knives that couldnt slice butter. So are you stating that Queen never made a knife with Sunken pins?

Lets not forget that Queen also marketed themselves as makers of premium Knives.

I have owned probably hundreds of Queen Knives - including many Winchesters Black Box etc and know their Quality well.

GEC have pretty much earned the right to sell knives as a top quality product- but I think people need to be a bit real, theres a Tony Bose Knife for 3K or a GEC for $100 - there is a difference in Quality AND price Obviously, for the money GEC is asking their workmanship it is generally recognized as one of the better Cutler firms that exist, What makes me laugh is people are expecting to buy a absolute perfect knife for $100 as if it were a knife that cost thousands! really? and they say "Well its meant to be premium " There really comes a time when people who think that need to get a reality check - the knife is a premium product- especially for the money.
The facts speak for themselves GEC make Premium Knives and their strike rate with the Knives they have released is why GEC are doing so well.
 
brownshoe said:
Some people think that sunken pins are a major flaw. They don't look good..."Don't buy no ugly knife." Sunken pins are enough for some people (obviously not you or most GEC lovers) to pass on buying a knife. GEC is getting the "finger pointed at being the only one with sunken pins" because GEC knives are marketed as a premium product and sunken pins are a cost-cutting technique, i.e. not a premium product.

The Winchester knives are a Queen product, not GEC. Some would say that before the Queen staff left to form GEC, Queen was at the top of its game, with both high end and economy lines. GEC still doesn't make knives that match Queen's top-of-the-line Schatt and Morgan product. Think ATS34 steel, fancy bolsters and checkered pearl handles :)
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Have to disagree. I have more than 300 traditional folding knives (some vintage and some new production) and I have a Schatt and Morgan Half Whittler that is, by far, the worst-made knife that I have ever handled. Still don't know why I didn't return it to the dealer when I got it.
 
The uneven pins in GEC knives bugs the crap outa me. To the point where I sold a couple because of it. For what these knives cost, I find it hard to believe whatever minor cost savings on the mfg part is worth all the dissatisfied customers. Honestly, it bugs me to the point where I'm not looking at GEC as much as I used to... this is a hot topic & has come up before & it seems like nobody's listening at GEC
 
WoodManGM, when did you buy the poorly made S&M half whittler? I'd be very surprised if it was more than 12 years ago, when Bill Daniels was still at Queen/S&M.
 
wfescalted.jpg
So, are the sunken pins a production process for overall best results with a variety of handle material or is it a cost cutting measure for GEC?
......or. is the author right and GEC simply is "not QUITE in that top tier." ?
 
black mamba said:
WoodManGM, when did you buy the poorly made S&M half whittler? I'd be very surprised if it was more than 12 years ago, when Bill Daniels was still at Queen/S&M.
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Got it in 2016 but I was led to believe it was NOS and much older. Don't know how old. I bought it sight unseen. The knife really soured me on Queen and I've only bought a couple more since then.
 
Once again - was the comparison was with one Canal St Knife - with two of GEC’s? Is that it?

If the Author wanted a real comparison he should have picked out quite a few of of each of the Companies Knives - for instance going into a dealership and picking them straight off the shelf.

No picking out the best etc.

The comparison also was with two companies- one that’s closed by the way, and one that still is going strong.

So line up a good Dozen different Cutlers work- keeping the cost of the Knives relatively equal -also importantly the same type of pattern - then that would be a more real look at things.

Until then it was some guy with three knives trying to set an overall opinion and judge a company with that?

This is not real whatsoever nor something I would take notice of.

So who then , remembering keep it in the same price range as GEC matched to the quality would be considered top tier?

Does the Author state whom would be a top tier Cutler with the same average price range - also who used the same Steels and Material range of Peach Seed Jigged Bones , Stags , Pearls, Cocobolo’s, Ebony’s etc etc ( please do not compare plastic handled or composites against GEC’s quality choice range of more expensive materials ).

If so let’s pull out hundreds of knives from that particular Cutler and have a good look at them ;) because this is what is happening with GEC here - again all I am stating is fair comparisons.

Because this I believe is how a knife magazine would OR should compare - they would not expose themselves comparing just one knife against another then stating an overall opinion from this.

Like the saying Apples for Apples folks.
 
The article is just a review of a GEC 25. I think that the author likes the knife but just brought out those points.
 
:thumbsup: :)

All good. I think it’s actually quite healthy to have such discussions- we all pick up on lots of little things that each has to share.
 
glocktenman said:
So, are the sunken pins a production process for overall best results with a variety of handle material or is it a cost cutting measure for GEC?
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Yes. The current process leads to much less pin crack occurrence; thus saves money on selling as seconds or scrapping altogether. My personal preference is a bit countersunk versus a large spinner diameter or mushroomed pins, but that is purely my preference.
 
These knives from the earlier days of GEC. The upper, mark side, pins on the two Harness Jacks are just a tad (barely detectable) sunken (I believe because the covers are jigged) while all the other pins on all knives are flush and domed. However, as the majority of GEC Knives of that period, they wouldn't slice butter even if the blades were heated. GEC Knives in those days were dull, dull, dull, out of the tube.
fDBq3RD.jpg

GEC makes a great knife. No doubt about it but they are not flaw free. Sunken pins, impossible pulls, blemished covers (the #46 comes to mind), cracked covers, etc. aren't uncommon. And yes, some of them, even to this day, come with gaps between liners and covers.
 
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Something else about GEC. Notice in the top picture that the pins and nails at the shields are in line (directly in line with each other). This had the possibility of splitting/cracking a cover especially since the shield pins we in line or very close to the pins and nails.and some were indeed cracked out of the tube with use.
fDBq3RD.jpg


Notice in this picture that the pins and nails are offset on the red and blue lockbacks next to the shields while the shield on the green liner lock has been moved up on the cover nearer to the front bolster. No more cracked covers because of the close proximity of cover pins, through and through nails, and shield pins.
u55pIsa.jpg


There was quite a long thread about this but I can't find it right now. If I find it, I'll post it.

Oh, don't concern yourselves with the SOG Stingray second from left. I just threw that in for comparison at the time I took this picture. The SOG by the way is a really nice knife. The SOG Stingray was awarded Best Imported Knife of the Year at the 1989 Blade Show. It's one of my avorite knives.
 
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glocktenman said:
The article is just a review of a GEC 25. I think that the author likes the knife but just brought out those points.
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To go back to the original post, the author makes the point "But it is not QUITE in that top tier. For example, the bolts on the handle scales on by Canal Street Cutlery Boy's Knife are 100% flush. Not just flush, but fingernail flush. Without looking you could never tell where the brass pin ends and the G10 begins. Not so here. In fact, two of the bolts seem to stand out from the handle, maybe even on purpose."

This thread's discussion has indicated that the author is generally correct and that sunken pins are not "top tier" but a cost saving measure. More than one poster has indicated that sunken pins are a deal breaker but nobody has stated that sunken pins are their preference and flush pins are a deal breaker :)
 
Modoc ED said:
Something else about GEC. Notice in the top picture that the pins and nails at the shields are in line (directly in line with each other). This had the possibility of splitting/cracking a cover especially since the shield pins we in line or very close to the pins and nails.and some were indeed cracked out of the tube with use.
fDBq3RD.jpg


Notice in this picture that the pins and nails are offset on the red and blue lockbacks next to the shields while the shield on the green liner lock has been moved up on the cover nearer to the front bolster. No more cracked covers because of the close proximity of cover pins, through and through nails, and shield pins.
u55pIsa.jpg


There was quite a long thread about this but I can't find it right now. If I find it, I'll post it.

Oh, don't concern yourselves with the SOG Stingray second from left. I just threw that in for comparison at the time I took this picture. The SOG by the way is a really nice knife. The SOG Stingray was awarded Best Imported Knife of the Year at the 1989 Blade Show. It's one of my favorite knives.
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Ted I have quite a few early GEC's, I have heard of people receiving a dull knife from GEC- like you say in the earlier days- that would not happen now - if so very rarely. Sure GEC knives do have small faults - of course they do - when you start a company off you aren't going to get it perfect right from the start - GEC are getting better and better all the time- and they started off pretty darned good by the way.
I found in some patterns - earlier models of GEC they were absolute nail breakers! I have had some Schatt and Morgan Knives as well that are so tough - I n have found only one person able to open it- that was Iron Thumb Nailed Charlie, so I keep the knife because it looks nice with the Stag - and its part of a series, other wise it would be in the bin.

brownshoe said:
To go back to the original post, the author makes the point "But it is not QUITE in that top tier. For example, the bolts on the handle scales on by Canal Street Cutlery Boy's Knife are 100% flush. Not just flush, but fingernail flush. Without looking you could never tell where the brass pin ends and the G10 begins. Not so here. In fact, two of the bolts seem to stand out from the handle, maybe even on purpose."

This thread's discussion has indicated that the author is generally correct and that sunken pins are not "top tier" but a cost saving measure. More than one poster has indicated that sunken pins are a deal breaker but nobody has stated that sunken pins are their preference and flush pins are a deal breaker :)
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When reading Knifeswappers explanation about the sunken pins - there's a lot of education for those who think that sunken pins is merely for cost saving- when someone states that GEC do this purely for penny pinching/cost saving- obviously that person is uneducated as there is reasoning for doing this
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I havent seen the knives that the Author that the OP quoted, and wonder what type of handle material the Canal Street Knife has, I have several Canal street knives none of which have dead flush pins, but this doesnt worry me as they are great knives! Having a nice flush pin is of course a bonus, Im wondering if any Cutler firm has a pure flush pin on Jigged Bone, Natural Stag? to be able to flush the pin so beautifully you have to sand it with - so it makes me laugh a little when people display a beautiful piece of Stag and comment that the pins arent flush! Hammered Pins I think are better than a flush pin on a Traditonal Knife, Over spun Pins look terrible -s I would rather a pin sunken rather than an over spun pin or a mushroom dome any day.

Like I have asked- who in the Cutler World is top tier then? - remembering to keep the value and materials involved on an even scale when comparing against GEC! Anyone?

Bill Howard is one ( I do say is one )of the better Cutler in existence of todays Cutlery World, I am sure that those who are unhappy would learn from Bill if handing a knife to him and explaining just what they are unhappy about- and I am not trying to be smart- I have viewed Bill looking at several Knives handed to him- seeing how he handles that knife and what he has to say- Whew, theres a lot more in the game I even want to know about!
 
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