Pistol-caliber carbine

[notos&w]

Given the current political state, I'm in the market for a new pistol-caliber carbine such as the Beretta CX4. I'm particularly partial towards 9mm b/c I have more than a few 9mm handguns (inc. a 92FS w/ standard capacity mags), cost of ammo and availability. I'll listen to suggestions on other calibers but know my strong bias.

My priorities are:
1. Reliability
2. Cost/value
3. Other functional considerations (weight, durability, accuracy, availability of inexpensive magazines, ability to mount accessories such as red dot, etc.)

Any ideas are appreciated. Also, fyi, I have a number of handguns, a couple 12 gauges (one with 18 1/2 barrel and 7 shot magazine), a 30.06, a 20 gauge SxS, and some small caliber rifles and pistols.

 

[xbxb]

Well I guess you could always get a 44 mag pistol and lever action rifle. It's a good combo for me. Or a 45 long in a pistol and rifle.

 

[zenheretic]

As you may know the 9mm is a whole different beast in a "sub gun" vs. a pistol. For capacity and cost ratio nothing beats it. Since you already have the 92fs just stick with that option. Unless you are willing to drop $1000s on a lot of new mags (face it a carbine is fairly worthless without a big stack of mags), ammo, a pistol and a carbine, you should stick with the momentum of what you already have and flesh it out.

I have a Beretta Storm...I don't care for the factory peep sites in low light conditions, YMMV. Other than that, I find it accurate and easy to operate.

If I had to start from scratch, I'd go with the .40 cal and the matching CX and PX combo. It is a bummer the regular 92FS mags don't fit.

 

[Absintheur]

Look at the Kel-Tec Sub 2000, you can get the version that will use your Beretta magazines. The Beretta Storm will also use them. Other options include Marlin's Camp Carbine or one of the carbines from Masterpiece Arms. Going up in price you could look at some of the AR's or HK clones. Or if you have a Glock the Mech Tech conversions are fantastic as well. Actually you can buy a Glock 17 and the conversion cheaper than you can buy some complete rifles. Sadly after last night I don't know how long the low prices will last.

I felt the same way about the way things were looking and got mine earlier this year. This is my Masterpiece Arms MPA-71. It uses 71 round Soumi mags or the 32 round sticks.

 

[zenheretic]

. Or if you have a Glock the Mech Tech conversions are fantastic as well. Actually you can buy a Glock 17 and the conversion cheaper than you can buy some complete rifles. Sadly after last night I don't know how long the low prices will last.

Wow! I forgot about that option...and just looked and learned something new...that is versatile.

What this means is that a Glock pistol & CCU combination can be set up to safely fire a cartridge different from that for which the assembled pistol is designed. Example: The frame (lower unit) of a Glock designed to fire the 45 ACP cartridge in the assembled pistol can be safely used with a CCU designed to fire the 10mm cartridge. This is accomplished by assembly of the 45 ACP Glock frame to the 10mm CCU and the use of a Glock 10mm magazine designed to be used with that series of frame size. This information is provided only to illustrate the flexibility of the Mech-Tech CCU

 

[ohen cepel]

I think I would do the Storm in your case. Saves you on the extras that it would take to feed a new platform.

 

[David E]

Keltec sub rifle folds. That's cool and can be a major advantage in some situations.

You can get the one that uses your existing Beretta mags, so no need to buy different ones.

I'd stock up on mags, first.

And I'd have to ask what a 9mm carbine can do that a .223 carbine couldn't do better. (non-focused "fun" shooting and ammo cost aside.)

.

 

[Absintheur]

A pistol caliber carbine that uses the same mags as your handgun has obvious logistic advantages. Plus a pistol caliber like the 9mm has less chance of over penetration (especially when loaded with Glasers or Mag-Safes) in the home. They are also easier to suppress, have less muzzle flash at night, lighter recoil, lower initial cost and are often lighter and shorter. I am not saying they are a replacement for an AR or FN or whatever you choice of main battle rifle might be but in the home they work very well, especially in an urban environment.

 

[Charlie Fox]

A pistol caliber carbine that uses the same mags as your handgun has obvious logistic advantages. Plus a pistol caliber like the 9mm has less chance of over penetration (especially when loaded with Glasers or Mag-Safes) in the home. They are also easier to suppress, have less muzzle flash at night, lighter recoil, lower initial cost and are often lighter and shorter. I am not saying they are a replacement for an AR or FN or whatever you choice of main battle rifle might be but in the home they work very well, especially in an urban environment.

I concur! Always remember - it is not a rifle. It fires a pistol cartridge, albeit more accurately than a pistol. It will give a bit more "oomph" to the caliber also - my KT S2K chronos the 124 gr JHPs at about 1400 fps, while the same out of my G19 moves along at about 1200. This is both a good and bad thing; good because it means more terminal foot pounds on the target, bad because it may cause faster expansion of hollow point rounds limiting penetration. YMMV

 

[joeshredd]

I, too, am exploring the pistol caliber carbine, but for a different reason...

I am looking for something that is not only reliable, but very simple to operate and requires very little strength to operate, because...

I'm looking for something for my Father. He's been thru 2 bouts of different cancers in the last year, just broke his hip and has become very weak. He can't rack the slide of most semi-autos. He also has a 12 ga shottie, but while he used to be an amazing clays shooter, I don't think he can handle the recoil, anymore beyond the first shot.

He has a .38 as well (not capable of .357!)

So, I'd like to know what may be out there that is within his capabilities. I have an IMI Timberwolf capable of .38/.357 use, and it is a pump, so I know he'd have the basic operation down... However, I'm out west and he's out east, so I can't be sure if he can handle it.

But, I am curious if some of the semi-auto pistol caliber carbines out there are easy enough to use.

I'm asking you because of your previously stated qualifications, and the fact that I believe you and I are close enough in age that we can understand the limitations placed on us physically as we age... Sorry, don't mean to imply you are old, but lately, I, too, have been feeling the limitations my body is beginning to experience, and I don't have all the experiences you seem to have...

Any and all input is extremely appreciated!!!

 

[Absintheur]

Joeshredd

You are asking a tough question because I don't know just how strength your father has. I would say the Mech-Tech are about the hardest to pull the bolt back on and the 9mm Masterpiece Arms are about the easiest. Also the Masterpiece Arms offer a side cock that is a largish bolt handle. If nothing else he could place the bolt handle against a door frame and push, that would work with most side cockers. If he is well versed with shotguns I wouldn't hesitate to arm him with a Mossberg 410 home defense shotgun. Loaded with 6+1 rounds ofbuckshot it would be a good alternative and the vertical fore grip would add in cycling the action.

 

[joeshredd]

Joeshredd

You are asking a tough question because I don't know just how strength your father has. I would say the Mech-Tech are about the hardest to pull the bolt back on and the 9mm Masterpiece Arms are about the easiest. Also the Masterpiece Arms offer a side cock that is a largish bolt handle. If nothing else he could place the bolt handle against a door frame and push, that would work with most side cockers. If he is well versed with shotguns I wouldn't hesitate to arm him with a Mossberg 410 home defense shotgun. Loaded with 6+1 rounds ofbuckshot it would be a good alternative and the vertical fore grip would add in cycling the action.

Thanks for the thought - I've learned how to use something to push against for both the pistol and bolthandle, but hadn't thought of that as I'm not aware of how many guns use it. I know the campcarbine does, as well as some subguns... I'll have to look into the Masterpiece Arms in 9mm... I presume they take proprietary mags? Or Suomi?

And if he can handle the pump, I'm thinking maybe the IMI would be best if it functions reliably in .38... Or I'll also give him my spare S&W 19-3 in .357...
But your mention of the .410 pump is intrigueing - I didn't know there was one. I inherited a breakfront single shot Sears .410... But it doesn't look intimidating enough

Thanks again! :thumbup:

 

[David E]

A pistol caliber carbine that uses the same mags as your handgun has obvious logistic advantages.

Yes, but that's a minimal consideration. Convenient, but minimal in importance.

Plus a pistol caliber like the 9mm has less chance of over penetration (especially when loaded with Glasers or Mag-Safes) in the home.

The 40/45 grain JHP's in .223 won't overpenetrate, either. Yes, they have more blast and flash.

They are also easier to suppress, have less muzzle flash at night, lighter recoil, lower initial cost and are often lighter and shorter.

Most of us aren't going to suppress them. Ammo choice minimizes concerns as far as muzzle flash. Cost can be comparable. I looked up your Masterpiece Arms MPA-71 and found it sells for over $900 BEFORE adding that magazine. AR's can be had ready to go for $700 or less.

My point is, if it's the SAME SIZE AND WEIGHT (and cost) as a rifle/carbine in .223, then why would you still want one? I'm not saying no reason exists (as another poster stated a very compelling viewpoint) just saying that one should adequately and objectively assess the overall situation.

I have a Keltec Sub rifle, because it FOLDS into a very small package. Add a 33 rd Glock mag and I'm able to ruin somebody's day, all day, out to 50-75 yds. So can my daughter and wife, neither of whom shoot handguns all that great.

.

 

[David E]

And if he can handle the pump, I'm thinking maybe the IMI would be best if it functions reliably in .38... Or I'll also give him my spare S&W 19-3 in .357...

Again, hard to select a gun for someone unknown to us, much less being unaware of his physical limitations.

If he's not opposed to one, I'd look at a Glock 17 instead of a revolver. Load standard pressure ammo, not anything Plus P or hotter. He can shoot 17+1 before reloading, which may become more important that anything else.

As for a long gun, I've found it's the weight that's more of an issue than type of action. Maybe that Marlin .357 lever action, or even a .223 from DPMS (the "Sportical") that weighs 6.5 lbs or so.

Whatever works for HIM is "best."

.

 

[joeshredd]

Again, hard to select a gun for someone unknown to us, much less being unaware of his physical limitations.

If he's not opposed to one, I'd look at a Glock 17 instead of a revolver. Load standard pressure ammo, not anything Plus P or hotter. He can shoot 17+1 before reloading, which may become more important that anything else.

As for a long gun, I've found it's the weight that's more of an issue than type of action. Maybe that Marlin .357 lever action, or even a .223 from DPMS (the "Sportical") that weighs 6.5 lbs or so.

Whatever works for HIM is "best."

.

Thanks, but as I stated, he can't rack the slide on my Glocks nor the 1911... In terms of a pistol, I'm actually looking into the Beretta 84 or 86 that has the tip up barrel. But again, the spring on the button to open that may be beyond his strength... And yes, it's difficult to render some info 'cause one doesn't know the physical limitations he suffers from at this point... Which may be why we end up w/t keltec or the IMI Timberwolf.... he knows how to use the pump instintively, but I just have to see if he can physically cycle it easily... And I have a Marlin in .44 - I'm pretty sure racking the lever on that would be beyond his dexterity and strength levels right now...

Something for all to think about - as you age, you may not be able to handle with ease what you've become accustomed to over the years - plan for physical limitaions while you're building your arsenal... kinda why I'm keeping most of my revolvers - if I can hold 'em out w/2 hands, I can probably still pull the trigger, and .38 in the hand is better than .50 in the safe... as it were...

growing old ain't for wimps!

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Thanks, but as I stated, he can't rack the slide on my Glocks nor the 1911...

How about a S&W revolver in something like .45 ACP with moon clips? Not much recoil, and easy to reload.

 

[Absintheur]

But your mention of the .410 pump is intrigueing - I didn't know there was one. I inherited a breakfront single shot Sears .410... But it doesn't look intimidating enough

Thanks again! :thumbup:

Here is what it looks like...

Most of us aren't going to suppress them. Ammo choice minimizes concerns as far as muzzle flash. Cost can be comparable. I looked up your Masterpiece Arms MPA-71 and found it sells for over $900 BEFORE adding that magazine. AR's can be had ready to go for $700 or less.

Masterpiece Arms also make 9mm carbines that sell for under $400 and use cheap 32 round stick magazines. My MPA-71 is another critter all together.

The ability to use the same mag and ammo is not a minor consideration either. For those on a budget it makes a huge amount of sense as they can half the amount of money spent on mags and invest in ammo instead. Also it would be nice to be able to grab the car gun and know the spare mags on your belt will work in it.

 

[zenheretic]

The ability to use the same mag and ammo is not a minor consideration either. For those on a budget it makes a huge amount of sense as they can half the amount of money spent on mags and invest in ammo instead. Also it would be nice to be able to grab the car gun and know the spare mags on your belt will work in it.

This is especially true if someone is just starting out from ground zero in terms of experience and materials... and has no other guns...but wants a rifle/pistol combo package and wants it before mid January...for example. Once they get that, they can worry about a shotgun/elk rifle/battle rifle.

 

[David E]

Thanks, but as I stated, he can't rack the slide on my Glocks nor the 1911...

Actually, you said he can't rack the slide on "most semi-autos."

The Glock is one of the easiest to rack. If that is too difficult, then changing out the recoil spring for a lighter one should do the trick. Proper technique helps tremendously. No "sling-shot" method, but the over hand "push-pull" technique works for most folks.

In my own experience, the folks that had real strength issues also had a weak trigger finger. Now, if he can pull a long, hard trigger thru the DA pull, then you might've solved the problem, presuming he can solve HIS problem in 6-8 shots or less. Larger revolvers have, or can be customized to have, a lighter trigger pull. This is due to the physical mechanics of the larger parts.

My mother and mother-in-law cannot pull DA triggers on a revolver, so on to "Plan B" I went. If your Dad might have trouble depressing a relatively light springed button on the Beretta 86, then I'd have to doubt he'd have the strength to pull a DA trigger all the way thru. Evenso, could he quickly reload a revolver if necessary?

A hicap semi-auto like the Glock 17, on the other hand, has a much lighter, shorter trigger pull and holds 17+1. Should be easy to shoot and he shouldn't have to worry about reloading it during any altercation.

Other 9mm options include the S&W M&P and Springfield XD and XD-M. These hold from 16 to 19+1

If the only real concern is racking the slide, then perhaps someone could rack it for him in advance. Keep a few loaded mags around and he should be set.

Another option is a .22 semi-auto. The hard part here would be loading the magazines, but you could do that for him in advance. Most guns have light recoil springs, so hopefully he could chamber one when he wanted to. A Ruger 10-22 in .22 Magnum might be considered.

But is this concern for a defensive gun one that he brought up to you, or one that you think exists? The answer would make a difference in how you proceed.

.

 

[David E]

This is especially true if someone is just starting out from ground zero in terms of experience and materials... and has no other guns...but wants a rifle/pistol combo package and wants it before mid January...for example. Once they get that, they can worry about a shotgun/elk rifle/battle rifle.

With all due respect, the items to buy NOW are high capacity magazines and "battle rifles."

The other stuff is further down their list of "evil guns"

.