Please be careful

Crag the Brewer said:
This might be a silly question..... how do we as members know if WE ourselves are hacked?
would it be apparent to us?
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Not sure. It hasn't happened to me yet. If your password was changed by the hacker you wouldn't be able to log in, that would be one way.

If you saw posts under your user name that you didn't make, that'd be another.

Then the problem is alerting staff to the issue. Having a friend reach out, or registering under another name temporarily to make the report.
 
ferider said:
Never mind then.
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It's not a bad idea, Roland, it's just outside of my ability to do...and I have other responsibilities to take care of today that have nothing to do with the forums. (Which, as you know, I already volunteer a great deal of my personal time on dealing with stuff, day and night.)
 
And here I was, sorely bummed because he got to b4 me. I am going to be selling two of mine here real soon. ( starting my own estate sale) but that seemed so good a deal. When he said he was selling sdfk’s and wasn’t sure if what he paid, that was my flag since they’re brand new.
 
fonedork said:
I’m sorry you got scammed man. Pro tip: Use a credit card to pay friends and family. You have the protection of doing a chargeback through the credit card.
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Has anyone actually tried/done this?

If you were using a CC to make a PayPal G&S payment, then yes, that would be a recourse (although you would most likely lose your PayPal account from doing so).

I've actually used the 'threat' of doing so, to force PayPal to issue the refund (eBay scammer, who used a scammed tracking number. No idea how they do this, but the scammers obtain an actual tracking number for a package being shipped to the buyer's city/zip code. eBay/PayPal says, "We see that the seller provided a valid tracking number, showing that the package was delivered. Tough shit").

I showed them the tracking info, including the package info (which showed 5lbs, for an item which should have weighed 60lbs), the contact email with the shipping company that stated in the reply, "I'm afraid we cannot disclose the address to which the item with this tracking number was delivered, but I can confirm that it was NOT delivered to your address that you provided in your email". Then told PayPal, "Either you issue the refund when YOUR link clearly states that the Buyer is protected, or I'll have my CC do a chargeback, then close my PayPal account". Refund was issued promptly.

But in the case of a F&F transaction, PayPal will (rightfully so) tell you, "F&F is a convenience provided by PayPal for sending funds to your Friends & Family. Unlike payments for Goods & Services, refunds are not eligible for F&F transactions".

Then what do you report to your CC issuer? "Hey, I used my CC for a PayPal F&F transaction, to circumvent tax laws, and the 3% PayPal charge for G&S payments, but the seller didn't ship my item. I want to do a chargeback"?

As Blues mentioned, using F&F carries risks, that the Buyer is knowingly undertaking.
 
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bluemax_1 said:
Has anyone actually tried/done this?

If you were using a CC to make a PayPal G&S payment, then yes, that would be a recourse (although you would most likely lose your PayPal account from doing so).

I've actually used the 'threat' of doing so, to force PayPal to issue the refund (eBay scammer, who used a scammed tracking number. No idea how they do this, but the scammers obtain an actual tracking number for a package being shipped to the buyer's city/zip code. eBay/PayPal says, "We see that the seller provided a valid tracking number, showing that the package was delivered. Tough shit").

But in the case of a F&F transaction, PayPal will (rightfully so) tell you, "F&F is a convenience provided by PayPal for sending funds to your Friends & Family. Unlike payments for Goods & Services, refunds are not eligible for F&F transactions".

Then what do you report to your CC issuer? "Hey, I used my CC for a PayPal F&F transaction, to circumvent tax laws, and the 3% PayPal charge for G&S payments, but the seller didn't ship my item. I want to do a chargeback"?

As Blues mentioned, using F&F carries risks, that the Buyer is knowingly undertaking.
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Yes, there were scammers on reddit knife swap using friends and family chargebacks to get free knives from people for a while. I doubt they said "I am trying to circumvent tax laws HURR DURR" though
 
Crag the Brewer said:
This might be a silly question..... how do we as members know if WE ourselves are hacked?
would it be apparent to us?
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Simple. Just practice proper password protection and you don't have to worry about it. Use a good password that isn't the same as anywhere else.

Most of the hacks here have happened because people use the same email address and password everywhere... They get compromised one place, then the hackers can go to town all over the place. Bad, bad practice!
 
fonedork said:
Yes, there were scammers on reddit knife swap using friends and family chargebacks to get free knives from people for a while. I doubt they said "I am trying to circumvent tax laws HURR DURR" though
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I wonder how PayPal deals with it? Do they try to reclaim the funds from the recipient?

I'd put that in the "2 wrongs, don't make a right" category.
 
ferider said:
Interestingly, the guy refused to send email, but did provide a PP email adress. "I can't send email. Please send pm. If it's a problem, I can sell it to the next one".

Also, it was Easter Sun evening, a time when moderators might be busy off the forum.
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"Interestingly, the guy refused to send email, but did provide a PP email adress. 'I can't send email. Please send pm. If it's a problem, I can sell it to the next one'."

That is a HUGE effing red flag right there. A giant NO-GO sign for me. Shady used-car / timeshare salesman crap. "I can sell to the next one" . . . then do.


Blues said:
I've said this umpteen times but it bears saying again in abbreviated form:

If the deal appears to be too good to be true, it probably is.

If you think that you are going to take advantage of someone's ignorance over the value of a knife (purportedly) for sale, you yourself may end up being the ignorant party. (These thieves are not stupid and know that appealing to one's greed or desire for a great deal can overwhelm common sense and precautions.)

If you send money to someone you don't know and have no recourse to reclaim those funds, you are setting yourself up for failure. You'll have no one to blame but yourself for getting burned, despite having legitimate grounds to be angry at the person who hustled you.

And remember, technically we are in the wrong for sending F&F for purchases. Yes, I know that all of us have done so, but it still violates PayPal's terms of service, and they are within their rights to blow you off if you try to make a claim. That's a separate issue from whether these dirtbags should be prosecuted or held accountable by other means.

Caveat Emptor.
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Blues said:
You're not the first and won't be the last.

Let me recommend something. If it's a person that you believe to be a member in good standing here...and is someone who has posted in the past...you can try to engage the person via PM, ask some innocuous question and see if there is something "peculiar" in the way they express themselves in their reply, specifically their command of the language etc.

If it seems like their reply is coming from "Google Translator" and stilted, and the person has posted in the past like a native English speaker, you may be right to walk away.

It's just one technique among several...but the big tell is often their offering something that is greatly undervalued for a quick sale. Don't fall for it.
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Some real good advice here.

"appealing to one's greed or desire for a great deal can overwhelm common sense and precautions"

People, this is the basis for almost every con since the beginning of time!!! Learned this at 12 years old from the opening scene of "The Sting."

I guess I'm lucky. I've done literally thousands of deals on the Internet , , , eBay, here, other collector sites . . . and so far I have never been scammed once.

Lucky? Or the fact that I don't effing trust ANYBODY!!! 🤣 And BTW, I am NOT paranoid. It's just that everyone is out to get me.


BTW, this doesn't seem to me to be a Carothers-specific issue. And it would be good if more BFers who are not CPK-fans (I know, right?) get a chance to see this. Would it make more sense to have this in "Whine & Cheese" or some other sub?
 
bluemax_1 said:
I wonder how PayPal deals with it? Do they try to reclaim the funds from the recipient?

I'd put that in the "2 wrongs, don't make a right" category.
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Broadly speaking, PayPal has become the pits ever since eBay sold it off to a Chinese parent Co. Not that it ever was very stellar but IMO, it has become worse since! For example, it has become much more difficult getting an actual live rep to deal with issues, not even in the horrid sweat shops/call centers. Even the chat feature is not live, whereas you send a message and then someone will get back to you type of "chat" otherwise known as a PM / DM.

As an example, I purchased some merchandise from some guy who I had done some business in the past (unrelated to this hobby). The guy always seemed kinda sketchy but I tolerated him and kept the leash short and tight. I became more and more suspicious of him because I could see that on eBay he had started getting a torrent of negative feedbacks and the excuses were always the same, i.e, "someone broke into my car on my way to the USPS", "my wife misplaced the merchandise", "my brother shipped out the wrong merch while I was on a trip", yada, yada...

The last inv which he had sent me was an F&F which I immediately cancelled and requested G&S to include the description and the Qty of the goods, which he biatched about but obliged (I kinda knew what his end game was but still took a calculated risk). When I sent him the $ via PP, I made sure to use my AppleCard instead of funds in the bank which I normally use for trusted suppliers. The SOB generates shipping labels and then just sits on it for a few days presumably just to give him enough time to syphon the funds out PP into and then out of his account (I don't think that I was the only intended "victim"). I sent him a message and once he replied that he was sick of me because I always treated him with suspicion and that he had dropped off the 2 packages which the local USPS must have forgotten to scan, I immediately contacted AppleCard and started a claim based on none delivery of goods. I believe that AC will protect my measly $350 vs incompetent and negligent PP in this case.

When I contacted PayPal and went through their online gauntlet of questions, I was aghast as to how their system was tilted against good guys who were solid, stable and here to stay so that a scamming buyer could take advantage of their (PP's) 180 days dispute period versus a crook who can quickly syphon monies in and out, lather, rinse, repeat so to speak! In my case, PP is still waiting for the seller's response whereas that seller has actually canceled those BS shipping labels which he had generated on 3/23, for PP to review on 4/14 and then take action on 4/19! A novice buyer on PP can easily pay via a $ demand generated as an F&F to even forget to escalate a dispute to a claim which PP has made more meandering and difficult than the past when I remember I had my last dispute many moons ago.

My apologies for a long story but I absolutely concur with fonder when he had recommended to use a CC even when making F&F payments. This will actually cost the sender a few more $ but it is added insurance. While it does not guaranteed failsafe method against a cunning scammer, it is still heckuva lot better and more secure than simply sending $ via Zelle out of one's bank account funds.
 
fonedork said:
PayPal Friends and Family is actually horrible for sellers too, not just buyers, since the seller's protection doesn't come into play.
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Yes. For both buyers AND sellers.

Then again, as Blues pointed out above, folks are not supposed to be using F&F for sales / commercial transactions between buyers and sellers. It's for sending money to FRIENDS AND FAMILY. Like Western Union used to be. Personally, I have no idea why PP even allows this option.
 
The Amazing Virginian said:
Yes. For both buyers AND sellers.

Then again, as Blues pointed out above, folks are not supposed to be using F&F for sales / commercial transactions between buyers and sellers. It's for sending money to FRIENDS AND FAMILY. Like Western Union used to be. Personally, I have no idea why PP even allows this option.
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Simple, they make money (when you pay via CC) at lowered risk for them.
 
The Amazing Virginian said:
Yes. For both buyers AND sellers.

Then again, as Blues pointed out above, folks are not supposed to be using F&F for sales / commercial transactions between buyers and sellers. It's for sending money to FRIENDS AND FAMILY. Like Western Union used to be. Personally, I have no idea why PP even allows this option.
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As I mentioned, it was provided as a convenience to its users (eg. An alternative to things like CashApp and Venmo, for sending money to Friends and Family).

I'm pretty sure that they're aware of a much higher percentage of users using it in direct contravention to the Terms of Agreement, to circumvent fees and taxes now, which means it's more and more likely that they'll decide to remove the feature/option.
 
fonedork said:
PayPal Friends and Family is actually horrible for sellers too, not just buyers, since the seller's protection doesn't come into play.
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My last sale, I tried the MO routine for the first time......I think that seemed real safe (for Me, the seller)
I can't speak for my customer. But It seemed ok, too.

Granted the seller Has to be a trusted party, Hopefully i am? :D


Also with the buyer sending a MO to a personal home address (not a po box #) but maybe even then..... at Least there is a feeling of traceability???
And you then know where they live....

i don't think like a criminal, so IDK?
 
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