Point versus edge on a fighting knife?

I certainly agree that your favorite knife or the knife you think best as far as point/edge is concerned will be unique to given individuals. Some of the knives most prefered by folks in this forum I don't like much at all, but I respect their opinions. Given that preference is individual, what is your individual preference?

Zog

------------------
For reality as we have it is only one of many possible realities; it is not inevitable, not arbitrary, it bears within itself other possibilities.
-M. Bakhtin
 
Oh, and by the way Jerry, it's good to see you on the forum. It's great to get your input as usual (Mr. GAknife). I'm honored that one of the topics I posted earned your first reply. So what's your preference? What "feels" best for you? Point or edge? (Ford or Chevy?)

Zog (AKA Matt)
 
Zog,

Sorry about the glib response, but I think I'd go with your Colts.

Failing that, my personal knife would be a single edge blade of about 7" with the point centered with the handle and in the line of thrust, and a false or even sharpened edge along the back. I might be inclined to relieve the point very slightly to reduce the tendancy to stick on bone or other semi-penetrable material thus preventing penetration. There would be little belly since all vertical area creates resistance to penetration. The edge would favor rugged over shaving, as it will certainly encounter hard objects that will crack, knick, or shatter a fine edge. For a handle, I want it relatively fitted to my hand for a secure grip, and the material would likely be canvas Micarta since it retains a good gripping surface even when wet. I'd favor little or no guard that might catch or hang on an obstruction.

For a carry system, I favor leather since oil is cheaper than noise.

 
What do guns have to do with the importance of point or edge on a fighting knife?

The obvious answer is both, of course. For an excellent example, take a look at the Black Cloud Fighting Bowie or the Brend Model 2. All of which have plenty of edge and a well centered point with sharpened clip or false edge.

The Busse Battle Mistress is not a purpose built fighter, nor would I classify the CS Trailmaster as such. Sure, they would make great weapons, but they are not specialized as weapons.

Harv
 
I think the cracks about guns are to underlie the point that one does not bring a knife to a gunfight, so to speak. But I do agree, my question is about knives.

I appreciate your input Harv, and I must agree that I'm also very impressed with Black Cloud knives. Do any of you know if they're revamping? Their website hasn't changed in a couple of years. Are they coming out with any new designs, or just resting on their laurels?

Thanks,

Zog

------------------
For reality as we have it is only one of many possible realities; it is not inevitable, not arbitrary, it bears within itself other possibilities.
-M. Bakhtin
 
I'm surprised nobody pointed out Chicahiro's thread from the Tactical and Martial Arts forum. There are other threads on this subject but this is the most recent.


Click here for 'cut or stab'

------------------
"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb

 
How does one learn but to get a weapon and practise with it, preferably with a teacher. That is why I suggested the tapes on Bowie fighting that www.combattech.com sells. They come highly recommended.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh


 
Ernie went back to work. He's got a full time job, plus a lot of people like me hounding him for blades, so he hasn't gotten around to doing anything with his web site for awhile.

I wouldn't say he is resting on his laurels though. The fourth generation and fifth generation fighting bowies were a quantum leap in the evolution of his knives. Design-wise and function-wise, they are among the very best fighting bowies you can get. I expect future evolution of the design to be very slow and incremental.

He does a lot of custom work that doesn't show up on his web site. His new generation Short Sword 1 isn't depicted there. He also does what he calls a Short Short Sword with a 15" or so blade (my next Black Cloud blade). It is a larger version of his FB5. Also, if you send him a drawing, he will make it for you if he doesn't think it is completely off base. So he does keep moving.

Harv
 
Hugh,
I'll have to see about those videos. That's the third time somebody recommended them to me. Have you watched them yourself? The price is kind of steep for a fellow with a limited budget like me.

Harv,
I'm glad that Black Cloud is still going strong. Do you have any pics of his later generation fighting bowies/short swords/short short swords? What I've seen on Black Cloud's website is cool, too bad he doesn't have more time to revamp his page.

Zog


 
David,

My purpose for this thread was actually not to debate cutting or stabbing, per se. I realize now that I didn't express myself well, but what I had in mind was to see what individuals prefer, and what their knife preferences were that matched their tastes. I've gotten a few good responses along those lines. I apologize for the lack of clarity.

Zog
 
A double post?

[This message has been edited by Zog (edited 03 August 1999).]
 
A triple post? Whoops!

[This message has been edited by Zog (edited 03 August 1999).]
 
OK... No more talk of guns. I promise. While I never had an opinion that wasn't sometimes wrong, I was most always certain I was right.


Jerry
 
Hi, Zog. No, I haven't seen them, but they do come highly recommended by folks that I respect.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh


 
Hugh,
Thanks, I appreciate the honesty of your response. I have been impressed by Mr. Keating as well, so I will assume his video materials are top-shelf.

Jerry,
I thought your points about firearms were well taken. I would certainly prefer to use a firearm rather than a knife in a fight. As you pointed out, unfortunately sometimes we do screw up, and all we have left is a knife. I'm glad you described the knife you had in mind (sounds very familiar....)

Zog


------------------
For reality as we have it is only one of many possible realities; it is not inevitable, not arbitrary, it bears within itself other possibilities.
-M. Bakhtin
 
The picture of Ernie's fifth generation fighting bowie (FB5) pretty much sums up his current thinking about big fighting blades. His short swords are essentially just larger versions of the same design. The FB4 is not depicted on his site, and it is my favorite bowie. It is basicly an FB5 with straight integral guards instead of the blade catcher guards.

He is also making that bowie fighter called the Friend. It has a different handle designed by someone else whose name escapes me right now. It generally comes with a shorter straight clip and a saber grind on 3/16" stock versus the 1/4" stock he uses for his fighting bowies. It is a smaller, lighter bowie with a little more belly than Ernie's FB4 and FB5.

I think point, edge, and some mass are all key components of a purpose built fighting blade. That's why I think of the bowie when I think of a purpose-built fighter. Bowies require a lot of commitment to carry though. A good bowie has an excellent penetrating point and is pretty long for reach. The length gives you lots of edge and lots of chopping power. All that adds up to a lot of flexibility in defensive application.

I like a double-edged fighting blade too. It is very instinctive to cut with the primary edge going in, and then cut with the tip edge coming out without changing grips or wrist position. The best fighting bowies are almost double edged, usually with a very long sharpened clip. That results in a very fine point too. Good for parry and thrust, good for hanging back and chopping off anything that comes at you, with any luck at all.

Harv

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 03 August 1999).]
 
I think this parallel is worthy of some consideration. Given the choice, would you rather hold a Rapier or a Broadsword? The same question might be asked in knife fighting. Heavy Bowies and light Daggers are designed for different styles of fighting. A lot depends on physique. A small man with a heavy Bowie might be disadvantaged. Similarly a large man with a small knife may not be able to use the knife's inherent speed to full advantage. If the fight is in close, the Bowie is at a disadvantage. At a distance, a smaller knife is a poor choice.

I haven't seen balance mentioned. A knife that has a lot of weight in the blade can not be maneuvered as quickly as a knife that balances on the forefinger. Weight is an advantage only if your opponent chooses to allow you to use it. Otherwise he will fight with counter strokes and avoid the parry.

And while I said I wouldn't, I can't resist. Jim Bowie's most notable knife fight was the famous Sandbar Fight where both his opponents had guns. As I recall he killed one, wounded the other, and almost died himself. Even so I'm not sure the average saloon brawler can be favorably compared to a modern well-armed martial artist who uses speed and balance more than strength and bravado.

Jerry
 
The big difference between Bowie, Fairbairn, and Applegate is that Bowie had real knife fights in an era before Colt made us equal. I've read about how Fairbairn and friends invented Fairbairn Sykes dagger and it was all theory and minimal experience (it wasn't even designed for warfare). Applegate had similar theoretical criterion for his knife recommendations. Bowie had experience and a real need for a defensive knife.

For knife application I like to look at the recommendations of Styers in his book Cold Steel. He figures you need a point for terminal work, but the slash can disarm apponents and open up defenses. He favored a knife more in line with a medium bowie or a Kabar.

People do get killed by kitchen knives and straight razors. A blade design with a lot of belly and a razor edge can make extremely long and deep cuts. These will probably accomplish my purpose which is to escape rather than to kill. The point on a Kabar is perfectly adequate to administer lethal stabs and thrusts. It can also field dress an opponent.
 
The Friend is actually made by Charlie Porter. I don't know if he's still making them, but feel free to contact Black Cloud Knives at www.syspac.com/~bcloud/ (http://www.syspac.com/~bcloud/)

As far as balance is concerned, I'd agree it's critical. To continue the metaphor, I would prefer something on the order of a long cut & thrust sword. Something heavier than a rapier that can also cut, but not as heavy as a broadsword. I only have about seven knives in my entire collection that have noteworthy balance.

As far as kitchen knives go, a martial artist friend of mine actually prefers an 8" butcher knife to anything else for fighting (he says something like "10,000 criminals can't be wrong"). With that in mind, I think, some makers have developed "tactical" kitchen knives. Check out the Talmage Tactical Kitchen Knife at www.pe.net/~thrblade/ (Trace Rinaldi has a good reputation, but I've yet order anything).

Zog


------------------
For reality as we have it is only one of many possible realities; it is not inevitable, not arbitrary, it bears within itself other possibilities.
-M. Bakhtin

[This message has been edited by Zog (edited 03 August 1999).]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top