Poll and discussion on reworked or "faked" slipjoints

[Durwood]

If you found an example of a pattern you have been seeking for a long time would you buy it knowing fully well that it has had some high quality reworking done to it even though it is being presented as an authentic mint or near mint knife? Also, presume it is priced very reasonably--quite a bit less than far more worn and rough examples you've seen.

 

[Modoc ED]

Just because a knife has been reworked doesn't make it a fake. If I know a knife has been reworked, and I buy it I know what I'm geting and have no qualms at all. If on the other hand some yahoo presents it as totally original and wants the inflated vintage price, then I might have a problem.

A restored knife is a saved knife and well worth the effort to to restore it and the price to buy it.

 

[ptradeco]

Great question! I have been wrestling with this very thing lately on some very old knives. As I have been obsessed with the acquisition of a particular pattern this last year I have been offered many knives that don't quite cut it in the authenticity department. I personally have opted for lesser quality examples in my collection versus known reworked examples. Right or wrong I would rather have the real deal.

 

[Durwood]

Modoc Ed, in my opinion the only difference between reworked and faked is the intent of the seller or repairman. Neither are original. To be clear I'm not taking about outright "Fakes" such as Parker used to do. I know we are getting into semantics a bit

 

[comoha]

I'd rather have a cleaned up, functioning, sharp version of a vintage knife than it's rusty, creaky, crusty counterpart anyday.

 

[richstag]

I would not care if the craftsman knew what they were doing. With that said, misrepresentation just leads my mind to wonder what else is going on. If someone tells me the true story then it is what it is...no problem.

Kevin

 

[Seals]

IMO cleaning is fine,but replacing parts on a antique to sell it as an original is unethical.I agree with Eds logic also.Its a tough question.I guess i need clarification on what you mean by rework.Is that cleaning or fake stamps and replaced scales and blades?

 

[Bob W]

I only buy knives in new-unused condition. Faked, repaired, used, "cleaned to mint" (buffed to heck)... none of these are of interest to me.

 

[Durwood]

I only buy knives in new-unused condition. Faked, repaired, used, "cleaned to mint" (buffed to heck)... none of these are of interest to me.

You don't have too many vintage knives then do ya

 

[Durwood]

Here is the knife I had in mind when I started this thread. This pattern is called by different names depending upon the book and the locale. I've seen it called a Gunstock whittler, Lobster Whittler, and other variations, but it's commonly called an Orange Blossom. It has some definite issues, but I believe the minutiae of what I know and what I suspect about this knife would probably be better discussed elsewhere. Issues aside, it's one of the nicest looking specimens of this pattern I've ever seen:

 

[lambertiana]

As long as I knew going in that it was reworked, and the price is really good, I would buy it. They used to rework knives to replace blades regularly, so even knives with blades that appear correct and aged with the frame could have been reworked a long time ago. If it an obvious modern rework or complete rebuild, I would buy it if it was inexpensive and it was a pattern that I would carry and use. At that point, it would be no different from buying a new knife in that pattern.

 

[Bob W]

You don't have too many vintage knives then do ya

Not a lot, but a few. Bruckmann, Giesen & Forsthoff, Needham, and a couple of bayonets and khukris.

Some day (not too soon) the knives purchased new when I first started collecting will be "vintage."
The first Schrade Old Timer pocketknives were made over fifty years ago, to put "vintage" in perspective.

 

[cnas122]

I only buy knives in new-unused condition. Faked, repaired, used, "cleaned to mint" (buffed to heck)... none of these are of interest to me.

Durwood asked my question. You must not be a fan of old knives, unless you pay a premium for them in mint/patina condition. but if you pay a premium for those old perfect knives, I would assume you don't use them....or else why wouldn't you just buy a used one that you could use. But to each his own....

 

[cnas122]

Shoot....I'll buy a fake/reworked knife if I know it's a fake/reworked knife, I like the pattern, and I don't pay a lot of money for it. Knives are made for cutting, and it it's not one of my treasured knives, I'm going to cut it like a banshi

 

[Bob W]

Durwood asked my question. You must not be a fan of old knives, unless you pay a premium for them in mint/patina condition. but if you pay a premium for those old perfect knives, I would assume you don't use them....or else why wouldn't you just buy a used one that you could use. But to each his own....

If I were buying one to use, I wouldn't care if it was lightly used already. It'd never be entered into the collection though, and I still wouldn't buy one that was fake, broken, or modified. Doing so would only reward the faker and encourage further faking.

 

[Modoc ED]

Modoc Ed, in my opinion the only difference between reworked and faked is the intent of the seller or repairman. Neither are original.

You are right Durwood. INTENT is the key word. That is why I made the distinction between buying a knife I knew had been reworked and one someone was trying to pass as an original, vintage, knife that was in original un-reworked condition.

And I gotta go along with Corey's thought -- "I'd rather have a cleaned up, functioning, sharp version of a vintage knife than it's rusty, creaky, crusty counterpart anyday."

Right on Corey.

 

[Durwood]

I voted "It depends on the price" because I do still have a bit of a problem with it In this particular case the price and accuracy in which the knife was re-workeded overcame my objections because of my desire to own this particular pattern. Every one I've ever handled that was for sale was either broken or cleaned/buffed beyond recognition and still expensive. I've literally passed up a dozen examples over the past 10 years and frankly this one is the best I've been able to get. I've seen pics of better ones, but never in person. Someday

 

[Bob W]

You are right Durwood. INTENT is the key word. That is why I made the distinction between buying a knife I knew had been reworked and one someone was truing to pass as an original, vintage, knife that was in original un-reworked condition.

The fake knives will linger long after the faker's intent in forgotten.

 

[Durwood]

The fake knives will linger long after the faker's intent in forgotten.

I agree Bob. Not to hi-jack my own thread, but were you aware that Bruckmanns are one of the mostly commonly encountered "fake" vintage knives around? Most of the ones found in mint condition were assembled from parts in the not too distant past.

 

[Bob W]

I agree Bob. Not to hi-jack my own thread, but were you aware that Bruckmanns are one of the mostly commonly encountered "fake" vintage knives around? Most of the ones found in mint condition were assembled from parts in the not too distant past.

Yes, I've been pondering that for some time. You're trying to make my head explode with logical circles?

To complicate the matter are different gray areas of "fake". Is it "fake" if the old company sold the parts to a new company, who then completed the knives? There are many examples of this, or similar situations, in KnifeLand. Or is it "fake" if a new company buys an old brand and begins making similar knives? How about if a company makes brand-new knives using antique parts from their own warehouse? Are any of these actually instances of "faking" since the 'new' products are authorized or initiated by the 'original' company, who may or may not have actually been the original manufacturer of their own branded products?

You see where this is going, right? Eventually you have to draw a line somewhere or else the Spyderco Native is "fake" because it was made by Camillus.

None of this is on par with some guy in a shed stamping "IXL" on Rough Riders in order to get a higher eBay price.