Poll and discussion on reworked or "faked" slipjoints

[Durwood]

Yes, I've been pondering that for some time. You're trying to make my head explode with logical circles?

To complicate the matter are different gray areas of "fake". Is it "fake" if the old company sold the parts to a new company, who then completed the knives? There are many examples of this, or similar situations, in KnifeLand. Or is it "fake" if a new company buys an old brand and begins making similar knives? How about if a company makes brand-new knives using antique parts from their own warehouse?

I was naturally drawn to Bruckmann knives over a decade ago because so many nice "Sunday" type whittlers (a weakness of mine) could be found at very reasonable prices. Fortunately I had an honest mentor to clue me in...I was still tempted. A trip to Louisville, Ky will turn up enough examples to make you crazy

 

[Bastid]

A reworked knife does not bother me. A reworked knife represented as authentic is another matter all together and at that point it is a fake. Personally I will not support that type of thing in any way.

 

[VCM3]

A reworked knife does not bother me. A reworked knife represented as authentic is another matter all together and at that point it is a fake. Personally I will not support that type of thing in any way.

I agree...

Recently though,I bought one,reworked,thinking it was original. I asked the fella who knew it was re worked,if he thought it was done intentionally,or,during the course of the knife's life,as a repair. That answer was "I dunno"
So once again,a lot of grey area to know exactly what happens in a lifetime of 100 years or more,in some cases

 

[Durwood]

A reworked knife does not bother me. A reworked knife represented as authentic is another matter all together and at that point it is a fake. Personally I will not support that type of thing in any way.

I understand that view completely, but if Seller A fakes/ reworks a knife and represents it as authentic to it to Buyer B who keeps it for a while and realizes the knife for what it is and then Sells it as a Reworked knife is to Buyer C....didn't buyer C indirectly support a market for fakes?

 

[supratentorial]

I prefer knives left alone. If a knife is reworked so that it can be used, that's acceptable. I'm not sure how often that is the reason though. If the knives are sold, they should be clearly represented as such. Unfortunately, I can probably count the number of those auctions on one hand.

It does bother me when a good example of a pattern has been "cleaned". It removes the original finish and the knife is no longer a good example of the pattern. I especially hate it when these knives are represented as mint.

 

[Bastid]

I understand that view completely, but if Seller A fakes/ reworks a knife and represents it as authentic to it to Buyer B who keeps it for a while and realizes the knife for what it is and then Sells it as a Reworked knife is to Buyer C....didn't buyer C indirectly support a market for fakes?

You nailed my point on why I will not purchase or deal in fakes unless it it used to educate. I do not want to indirectly support a market for fakes so I do not participate.

Why start the chain of events? I do not not want fakes in my collection or knives I use because I do not want to be a part of perpetuating them. That is just my personal take on it. I have never seen it as a grey area. A knife is a fake or it is not a fake. A knife has been rehandled or it has not. A knife has been cleaned or it has not. If I can not tell for sure with or without help. I just stay away, but again it is my personal choice.

 

[supratentorial]

I understand that view completely, but if Seller A fakes/ reworks a knife and represents it as authentic to it to Buyer B who keeps it for a while and realizes the knife for what it is and then Sells it as a Reworked knife is to Buyer C....didn't buyer C indirectly support a market for fakes?

I think the most responsible thing would be to mark the knife somehow to indicate that it has been reworked.

 

[Bastid]

I think the most responsible thing would be to mark the knife somehow to indicate that it has been reworked.

:thumbup:

 

[VCM3]

You nailed my point on why I will not purchase or deal in fakes unless it it used to educate. I do not want to indirectly support a market for fakes so I do not participate.

Why start the chain of events? I do not not want fakes in my collection or knives I use because I do not want to be a part of perpetuating them. That is just my personal take on it. I have never seen it as a grey area. A knife is a fake or it is not a fake. A knife has been rehandled or it has not. A knife has been cleaned or it has not. If I can not tell for sure with or without help. I just stay away, but again it is my personal choice.

Gus,what I was getting at,w/ I said "grey area",was the idea that,lets say a knife built in 1920,was repaired at the factory in 1925 (and who could tell it was done at the factory anyway),and an expert can see it was taken apart & rebuilt Is this a "reworked" knife,or is it a genuine repaired knife ? or ?

 

[IVANKERLEY]

assuming reworked means the previous owner did something to it to keep it functioning and usable i havent a problem at all with that. I do have a problem when reworked means cobbling together a knife and then misrepresenting it.
Alot of old timers tinkered to some extent with their pocket knives, snapped the tip, hit the grinder and reshape it, knife gets wiggly try putting a new pin in it! My grandpa has a few that i inherited that you can tell he "worked" on... Now granted i wouldnt pay alot for something that has been reworked like that but as has been said in this thread it's all in the intent.
gene

 

[Bastid]

If the knife has had parts replaced/repaired since it's original date of manufacture I do not see a grey area at all, it is reworked.

Does not matter by whom or where the knife was repaired or reworked. I have no problem with a reworked knife at all as long as it is represented as such.

I do have a problem when a reworked knife is represented as original just as I would with any antique.

 

[Durwood]

Honest, professional reworks were supposed to be marked or initialed...how often have you seen that?

 

[VCM3]

Well I recently paid about 30% too much for an old knife on line. No way to tell from the pics it was "re worked" still a nice knife & in this situation,I can't fault the seller,because IMO,he himself may not have known,same as I did not
I have pics if you guys wanna see it
-Vince

 

[Durwood]

I'd like to see it, Vince

 

[VCM3]

I'd like to see it, Vince

A guy who builds slipjoints from scratch told me of the "re work"
Still a nice one at 3-3/4" colsed NYK Co

I removed the images of this knife because I realized I had not asked permission from it's new owner
I apologize for that,-Vince

I do not have this any longer,but on the backsprings were tarnish/pit marks across spring & liner,to me,if it were apart,it was a long time ago.I think the signs of the "re work" was inside it & I certainly did not know what to look for.

PS Also,the knife had to leave my hands,go to another,to then be told it was reworked.At that point,I would not hold the seller responsible for a return,either. If I were the seller I would not have known (and did not,for that matter),it was reworked
Thats enough grey area for me

 

[db]

If I believe the seller is dishonest I will not buy from that seller, ever. Doesn't matter if the price is great, or what the condition of the knife is.

 

[VCM3]

If I believe the seller is dishonest I will not buy from that seller, ever. Doesn't matter if the price is great, or what the condition of the knife is.

In some cases...
The seller,may not know he is mis representing the knife,though

PS An old knife may change hands many times before someone picks up on this "re work" not Genuine issue anmd the "mis representation"

Am I making any sense ?

 

[db]

In some cases...
The seller,may not know he is mis representing the knife,though

I'm not going to try and guess if the seller knows or not. If I think there is something dishonest I stay away.

 

[jamesbeat]

I'm definitely more of a user than a collector, so a reworked knife would probably be better for my purposes than a 'real' one.
If I spent a lot of money on a mint condition knife, I woukd be afraid to carry and use it.
If I spent less money on a knife in poor condition, it wouldn't be a good user.
If I could spend little money on a knife that had been reworked, I could have the pleasure of using an old knife that was in good mechanical shape, yet had little to no collector value.
After all, if the knife had been 'rescued', it probably wouldn't even exist had it not been reworked, so there's less guilt about using it.

That being said, this is assuming that the knife was sold to me honestly as a reworked knife.
I believe it is considered good practice to mark the inside of one of the liners to indicate a reworked knife.
As long as that is done and the knife is not being passed off as original, I have no problem with them.

If the knife is so marked, I see it as no different from buying a firearm with non-matching serial numbers.

 

[jamesbeat]

Another thought occured to me:
I expect many people here are like me in that they shave with a straight razor.
Most users will buy old razors and polish them up for use, even if they are over a century old.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, why not use it as it was intended to be used, and why not apply the same logic to a knife?