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What happens when it is discovered though? I've never actually seen a knife that was marked to indicate that it had been reworked. I think in most cases the knives just wind up exchanging hands again.
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Poll and discussion on reworked or "faked" slipjoints
- Thread starter Durwood
- Start date
What happens when it is discovered though? I've never actually seen a knife that was marked to indicate that it had been reworked. I think in most cases the knives just wind up exchanging hands again.
Hi,
I voted for no answer applies. And from observations of general collecting, many of us have interests in more than one area. And other areas have different views on refurbishment/reworking vs. original vs. fake. And I think that can color our attitudes about collecting pocket knives and other areas of collecting.
No collector likes a faked anything sold as original. It's even illegal in many places. But often hard to prove in court.
But after that it can get pretty subjective I think. As an example, a car collector would have no problem with new replacement parts on his 60's vintage muscle car. But a glass collector would have even bigger problems with even cleaning a say, a Tiffany vase than we might with an old Schrade-Walden. And I have been involved in a collecting field where if I was told that an item WAS original matching or even just matching, I'd laugh in your face. It had better be reworked and mis-matched, otherwise it's a fake.
One thing I like about knife collecting is you can do it your way and still get just as much enjoyment as if you were to don the sackcloth and ashes of the Purest. And even better yet, you can come here and share that happiness with everyone here!
Dale
I voted for no answer applies. And from observations of general collecting, many of us have interests in more than one area. And other areas have different views on refurbishment/reworking vs. original vs. fake. And I think that can color our attitudes about collecting pocket knives and other areas of collecting.
No collector likes a faked anything sold as original. It's even illegal in many places. But often hard to prove in court.
But after that it can get pretty subjective I think. As an example, a car collector would have no problem with new replacement parts on his 60's vintage muscle car. But a glass collector would have even bigger problems with even cleaning a say, a Tiffany vase than we might with an old Schrade-Walden. And I have been involved in a collecting field where if I was told that an item WAS original matching or even just matching, I'd laugh in your face. It had better be reworked and mis-matched, otherwise it's a fake.
One thing I like about knife collecting is you can do it your way and still get just as much enjoyment as if you were to don the sackcloth and ashes of the Purest. And even better yet, you can come here and share that happiness with everyone here!
Dale
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A guy who builds slipjoints from scratch told me of the "re work"
Still a nice one at 3-3/4" colsed NYK Co
I do not have this any longer,but on the backsprings were tarnish/pit marks across spring & liner,to me,if it were apart,it was a long time ago.I think the signs of the "re work" was inside it & I certainly did not know what to look for.
PS Also,the knife had to leave my hands,go to another,to then be told it was reworked.At that point,I would not hold the seller responsible for a return,either. If I were the seller I would not have known (and did not,for that matter),it was reworked
Thats enough grey area for me
This knife makes me think it would be nice to have a permanent thread about the characteristics of faked, re-worked, put together, or whatever else you want to call them, slip joint knives. I know we have the BRL forum but... For reasons I will not go into here this knife has a couple of things not correct and it would be interesting, in the appropriate forum, to debate those issues.
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Here's one that I suspect has a repinned secondary. I couldn't tell from the auction photos but probably should have suspected it. Similar patterns in LGIV have a spey blade instead of a pen. The blade is marked appropriately and fits well. If it's not original it's a well chosen replacement. Also, I believe that the main blade was originally a pruning blade that was ground down -- that could just be a consequence of use and it doesn't bother me although it does reduce its value. If anyone knows more about the knife they are welcome to send me a PM. The question I'd like to pose here is what is my responsibility as a collector? Mark it? Destroy it? Use it? Sell it described accordingly?
For educational purposes here are a couple of the auction photos:
For educational purposes here are a couple of the auction photos:
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Thank you, Don. That's pretty much been my take on it too. It's definitely a learning experience for me and I welcome everyone's thoughts on it.
Modoc ED
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Here's one that I suspect has a repinned secondary. I couldn't tell from the auction photos but probably should have suspected it. Similar patterns in LGIV have a spey blade instead of a pen. The blade is marked appropriately and fits well. If it's not original it's a well chosen replacement. Also, I believe that the main blade was originally a pruning blade that was ground down -- that could just be a consequence of use and it doesn't bother me although it does reduce its value. If anyone knows more about the knife they are welcome to send me a PM. The question I'd like to pose here is what is my responsibility as a collector? Mark it? Destroy it? Use it? Sell it described accordingly?
Until it can be PROVEN that it is not original, I think you should treat it as an original. Just because there's no picture of it in LG4 doesn't mean it didn't exist in that configuration. It would be impossible for anyone to include a picture of every knife ever made in any book.
It's a very nice knife. Keep it in your collection or carry it. Either way it's a treasure.
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I agree with with Bastids first post. INTENT- if a knife is presented as original production and has been altered, fixed, repaired, re-worked, parts changed, etc. , it is not original and is a FAKE. Believe it or not the very first folding knife Buck produced is easily faked. But being one of the Holy Grails of Buck knives big dollars are required to get one of the very few around. Buck right after WW2 took surplus lifeboat knives and put Buck made blades in them. Offered them as the model 117. Only a small number were made. A worn one will sell for near or over $500.
"Characters" have taken current , cheap, easy to get lifeboat knives and put in a faked Buck blade. That is a fake. If you took two real 117s and made one really nice one AND you said you did to buyer, then that is a different matter. That would be a reworked knife.
So to me, FAKE - means the effort to Cheat. Reworked and say so mean you are making something decent that someone may want, just make sure you tell what has happened.
My outlook.......300Bucks
"Characters" have taken current , cheap, easy to get lifeboat knives and put in a faked Buck blade. That is a fake. If you took two real 117s and made one really nice one AND you said you did to buyer, then that is a different matter. That would be a reworked knife.
So to me, FAKE - means the effort to Cheat. Reworked and say so mean you are making something decent that someone may want, just make sure you tell what has happened.
My outlook.......300Bucks
Campbellclanman
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I am steering toward the Antique / Vintage knives, I personally feel that those knives are "the " knives" for me.
Fake...there are sellers who come up in Bernards Forum who intently sell fakes-one is a prolific blade welder who very cleverly welds newer blades onto the ricasso-keeping the stamping etc...to me if I bought a knife like this, and found out later - I would be shattered, and there is a lot to learn to spot a good fake...unfortunately I still do not posses the knowledge to be able to spot small tell-tale warning signs...these guys are good at what they do. I would love to name this guy-keeping an eye on Bernards forum is fantastic for this learning curb.
At one stage we have all been mislead, and a lot of us probably dont know this either.
A knife that has been ground to clean it - I feel just doesnt look right, so I would by-pass this knife as well.
If a knife has been cleaned-but hasnt been re-ground to do this, and I was looking for this particular knife-I would buy it.
I am a bit scared here, as there are many knives I want in this era-as we all do, and buying from one of our forum brothers would be safer than e-bay.
In saying that Im off to look in e-bay lol
Fake...there are sellers who come up in Bernards Forum who intently sell fakes-one is a prolific blade welder who very cleverly welds newer blades onto the ricasso-keeping the stamping etc...to me if I bought a knife like this, and found out later - I would be shattered, and there is a lot to learn to spot a good fake...unfortunately I still do not posses the knowledge to be able to spot small tell-tale warning signs...these guys are good at what they do. I would love to name this guy-keeping an eye on Bernards forum is fantastic for this learning curb.
At one stage we have all been mislead, and a lot of us probably dont know this either.
A knife that has been ground to clean it - I feel just doesnt look right, so I would by-pass this knife as well.
If a knife has been cleaned-but hasnt been re-ground to do this, and I was looking for this particular knife-I would buy it.
I am a bit scared here, as there are many knives I want in this era-as we all do, and buying from one of our forum brothers would be safer than e-bay.
In saying that Im off to look in e-bay lol
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One thing about intentions...Even if the intentions are good, knives will exchange hands eventually and the original intention will be lost.
Ed, Thank you for your comments. I agree that I can't say for sure that the pen blade isn't right for the knife but I suspect it. I'm learning though and someone more knowledgeable than me might know. The reason that I believe that the knife has been reworked is that the pin on the secondary blade doesn't match the bolster or the pin on the pruner blade. I couldn't see it in the auction photos but it's clearly visible in my scans.
A majority of auction photos are too poor to really see sufficient detail. Some sellers don't know enough about knives to spot a fake or how to take clear photos. Some sellers know what they have and will hide it. They know they will often get away with it and they rely on plausible deniability when they don't. Caveat emptor.
Duncan, BRLs forum is a great place for info. I sometimes ask BRL for help but didn't on the Farmer's jack (and look what happened!
) I'm also learning a lot by seeing more and more good examples of knives in the traditional forum. Another nice resource is the book Counterfeiting Antique Cutlery -- lot's of good info on how to spot fakes, especially fake Case knives.
Ed, Thank you for your comments. I agree that I can't say for sure that the pen blade isn't right for the knife but I suspect it. I'm learning though and someone more knowledgeable than me might know. The reason that I believe that the knife has been reworked is that the pin on the secondary blade doesn't match the bolster or the pin on the pruner blade. I couldn't see it in the auction photos but it's clearly visible in my scans.
A majority of auction photos are too poor to really see sufficient detail. Some sellers don't know enough about knives to spot a fake or how to take clear photos. Some sellers know what they have and will hide it. They know they will often get away with it and they rely on plausible deniability when they don't. Caveat emptor.
Duncan, BRLs forum is a great place for info. I sometimes ask BRL for help but didn't on the Farmer's jack (and look what happened!
) I'm also learning a lot by seeing more and more good examples of knives in the traditional forum. Another nice resource is the book Counterfeiting Antique Cutlery -- lot's of good info on how to spot fakes, especially fake Case knives.
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Guys, I really appreciate the comments and input shared on this thread. I realize that this is a very sensitive subject for some. I suspect that a look in to most vintage knife collector's knife packs and rolls will reveal their true feelings on cleaned, buffed, reworked, re-etched and otherwise tinkered with knives
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Although the original posts in the "Old Knives" sticky,was never intended to be a reference,it bloomed into one.
We hope to continue to add to it,to show the "real deal" ,and if you notice my postings,scanned details & descriptive text, is what we try for.
It's a big let down when you find out details about a vintage piece you thought was original & not reworked or "faked"-Vince
We hope to continue to add to it,to show the "real deal" ,and if you notice my postings,scanned details & descriptive text, is what we try for.
It's a big let down when you find out details about a vintage piece you thought was original & not reworked or "faked"-Vince
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I think that as long as folks are honest upfront that is the important part. Caveat emptor has also got to be foremost in everyone's mind. If you aren't sure, or don't trust the seller absolutely, walk away from something that will offend you later if there is error.
What I notice more than anything on the evil auction site is apathy on the part of most sellers. They seem to hide behind the "I'm not an expert" phrase. Sometimes to their detriment (the guy who didn't now he was selling a Spyderco Police so it was going for the teens instead of much more), sometimes to their betterment. I remember complaining to a seller once when I completed a "set" of knives with items he was selling only to find out they were factory fourths and fifths. He plainly told me I should have bought them through his store at a fraction of the auction price. I didn't like it but he was right. My fault for not doing more research to establish true value.
Also unfortunately, I'm finding out I just don't have the eye for on-line buying, even from the most sincere seller. I recently bought a 640045R that looked good to me. The seller answered several questions forthrightly and promptly. I won the knife at a price I thought was good only to find when I took receipt of it that the whoever did the final fit sanding/grinding at the factory took it way beyond level on the bottom. It is very evenly ground but instead of sitting flat and level, it's probably between a 1/16th and an 1/8th inch off on the one side. Now I have to find another to make sure that's just not the way Case made them or figure out what to look for on the blades to see if it was marked as a second and I just proved my ignorance again...
What I notice more than anything on the evil auction site is apathy on the part of most sellers. They seem to hide behind the "I'm not an expert" phrase. Sometimes to their detriment (the guy who didn't now he was selling a Spyderco Police so it was going for the teens instead of much more), sometimes to their betterment. I remember complaining to a seller once when I completed a "set" of knives with items he was selling only to find out they were factory fourths and fifths. He plainly told me I should have bought them through his store at a fraction of the auction price. I didn't like it but he was right. My fault for not doing more research to establish true value.
Also unfortunately, I'm finding out I just don't have the eye for on-line buying, even from the most sincere seller. I recently bought a 640045R that looked good to me. The seller answered several questions forthrightly and promptly. I won the knife at a price I thought was good only to find when I took receipt of it that the whoever did the final fit sanding/grinding at the factory took it way beyond level on the bottom. It is very evenly ground but instead of sitting flat and level, it's probably between a 1/16th and an 1/8th inch off on the one side. Now I have to find another to make sure that's just not the way Case made them or figure out what to look for on the blades to see if it was marked as a second and I just proved my ignorance again...