Poncho functionality

Tell you guys what, in the spirit of empiricism, when I get the bothy, I'll go spend a night out in it as soon as I get a chance, as if I were caught out on a day hike. I'll monitor temps, document everything, and report back. That should be fun. It won't be winter conditions, but perhaps performance can be extrapolated.

I'll bring my standard bping kit along and set up my normal stuff alongside, just in case.
 
Tell you guys what, in the spirit of empiricism, when I get the bothy, I'll go spend a night out in it as soon as I get a chance, as if I were caught out on a day hike. I'll monitor temps, document everything, and report back. That should be fun. It won't be winter conditions, but perhaps performance can be extrapolated.I'll bring my standard bping kit along and set up my normal stuff alongside, just in case.
Hola.............................I'll be very interested in your findings.......................................Personally, I think the bothy thing is a great idea that's saved a lot of people, but it fits a niche I don't have. The primary beef I have is that you are the frame, a state I described here before as having the potential for looking just like a knackered pantomime horse. There's also no gap so it's still going to feel like stuff is beating down on me. As far as that goes I might as well just be in a bivvy bag or wrapped up in that old heavy poncho. In fact, that old poncho is so tough and water resistant you can cocoon yourself and roll in a ditch without much worry about water pressure. As I see it, the single advantage they offer me is trapping dead air. But still, as much as I'm with the candle warming idea in theory it isn't particularly great in practice, even in a tiny tent or my old hooped bivvy [coffin]. I've got one here that's fairly light [59g empty], but more than half the weight of it is the glass. Kinda unavoidable. It doesn't matter that tea lights weigh 12g when the unit adds all that. And I can introduce more warmth to myself with a bottle of hot water on the gooch or under the armpit, or just on the feet. Tarp is still winning for me because of that, and other stuff you already know about tarps........................................I think they are an excellent idea for some other people though. If you've ever seen anything on “the mass trespass of Kinder Scout” and the like you can see that many under prepared folks started going to places that were really the province of keepers and farmers and those accustomed to foul whether. Rambling took off in a big way, but many off them came unstuck when then pushed their glorified picnics a bit too far. Some sort of industrial bin bag became recommended to take along with the flask and the bobble hat and the Kendal Mint Cake. Get in it and wait for rescue kinda thing.....................................Sure over time they've become more sophisticated. Those we have now hold scant resemblance to the original offerings. I'm certain that has allowed the brief to get even wider. Mountain rescue can get one up over a casualty or you can herd children under a big one for a moral boosting windproof lunch stop out of the wind. I certainly see niches in which they are fantastic. Same old theme with the prior knowledge though as we have with monster survival knives and ponchos though - I can do better for my needs by picking something else in advance.....................Yeah, very curious as to what you find.
 
Hey amigo,

Yeah, the idea, whether using a dedicated bothy, using a bivy, or improvising your poncho or tarp by cocooning up in it, is all the same: can I retain enough heat generated from my body or multiple bodies (or artificial means i.e. candle output or heated water bottle) in a layer of trapped or slowly exchanged air to stave off hypothermia. As with any VBL idea, it's based on the notion that even if you end up wet, mainly from condensation and humidity from your own respiration and insensible perspiration, you will be able to adequately thermoegulate... enough to keep you alive until you remedy your situation or it is remedied for you.

I think the differences come down to ease of achieving complete protection from the elements and the durability or waterproof/water-resistance of the specific materials employed. And what scenario you think to apply it in. The worst case scenario I'm envisioning I described earlier, but basically amounts to alone, no contact, injured enough to render me practically immobile, and storming like a mofo. I'm not looking to spend the night or multiple days in comfort, I'm looking for the most efficient way to prevent hypothermia. And I need the minimal level of extra crap to do that; on a typical day hike, I'm unlikely to carry a stove or build fires for heating liquids, don't carry chemical heating packs, and would not be inclined to use a candle if I didn't think I could vent well enough (and I wouldn't be carrying a lantern either so flame is also a concern but less in my mind if you're aware. If you're injured enough to be passing out or falling asleep, your shelter better be able to keep you warm enough without a candle). So I need a shelter that will stand on its own in thermoegulation that only requires my body heat to keep me alive in te expected temperatures (already wearing insulating layers is a given in my mind, that's your first line of defense).

So, I feel that while yes the other options will work, I feel like as you said earlier, if you try to fit these things into performing this specific job, they're solutions that reach but don't quite make it all the way and fall short.

Tarp: It's a big plane that you need to force into an enclosed 3d structure that will prevent air and cold external water from reaching you while allowing normal respiration. You need to make sure you have a tarp large enough to cocoon yourself properly which means more weight and bulk that you have to decide to bring on every day hike no matter if the weather is fine when you planned to be out. I don't think many plan to be in survival situations, and like you said: will you trust your life to hoping the weather conforms to predictions? Temps and lack of rain may be fine for the 6-8 hours or so I'm out in the day, but did I bring the "right" stuff while remaining light and mobile for the day hike, not anticipating having to camp out or having incurred an injury serious enough to prevent self-evacuation?

Poncho: Used to be my go to, but in the case of injury, it suffers the same as the tarp above, with the added benefit of having a hole in the middle of it. So not only do you have to prevent warm air escaping and cold air/water entering the plane sides, now you have to contend with a hole smack dab in the middle as well. Sure it'd work, you can sit on your pack, hunch down and assume sitting fetal, wrap the poncho around you and keep the hood playing nice or cinch it up all together, in which case you might as well be in a bothy.

Bivy: A properly designed one with a purpose built hood or large enough to fashion a hood, fixes everything about the previous two, except for the one hole that is still exposed to the elements. I think in essence a full rain suit would basically do the same as a bivy, if it trapped enough air and allowed you to go fetal for warmth conservation. The only negatives would be that the jacket isn't connected to the pants and your shoed feet would be exposed to the cold and/or wet.

Bothy: Fixes everything above. You pull a material 3d bubble over you. No fuss. Warm air is trapped in the bubble, since the only hole is flat against the ground. The same goes for wind and rain getting in - it doesn't, not if you keep the hole right to the ground. It is light, and no added weight for unnecessary material because it is already shaped for you. Since it is light and compact, you are more likely to have it on you when you actually need it, no matter the conditions you set off in... because sometimes despite your planning and expectations, stuff just happens. It takes the bare minimum effort on your part to make it work. You just unstuff and pull it over you, more comfort can be had by tweaking once you're inside. If you have mangled limbs, you don't need to maneuver yourself with wrapping or moving your body into a bivy, all you need to do is weight down the seat with your body and get the bubble over you.

One caveat on the bivy vs bothy, something like the blizzard bag I don't really count in terms of how much warmth is provided. The blizzard bag seems like it is made of cells in the material so it traps heat much better than a simple fabric layer. I do think that for one, the Blizzard Bag would provide more warmth because its basically a waterproof wind proof light/medium sleeping bag.

Now the one area I can see differences being blurred is in the specific materials used. Then you're into the standard weight vs material properties debate (PU coated nylon vs silnylon vs cuben etc).

Anyway, yeah, fun discussion, I look forward to doing the bothy experiment :thumbup: :)
 
I will say I have the same, albeit slight, concern about the frame thing. I probably won't be able to lean back when using it solo, unless I can set up my poles or whatever such that I can brace the other side high enough using my legs. I should be able to keep it up just for space if needed with poles, but I won't be able to lean back. Other questions/concerns I hope to answer:

What if one person is injured such that they need to lie down or be in the recovery position?
How much will a cold back affect your thermoegulation, since you use your back right against the fabric as a frame? Any insulating layers you're wearing are going to be compressed, right? This may be mitigated by using your pack if you're not already sitting on it for insulation. Perhaps the heat on the rest of your body is enough to compensate for that.
How good is the silnylon used? Not all silnylon is equal, some perform less well than others (like say, Shield silnylon).
How much effort will it take to make it effective in strong wind when used solo? Sure I could wrap up like a shroud, but the psychological benefit of having a little space would be nice. Not an issue when two are in it.

One more thought on the advantage of the Bothy: I think it'd allow you avoid a potentially bad situation in the first place by providing you with a quick and easy time-out. If you're uninjured, and just get a little breathing space and calm down by hunkering down in a Bothy or something, it allows you to re-evaluate your situation with less stress and therefore a clearer mind. You will probably figure out the solution to your problem and be able to safely evacuate yourself either then or in the morning. I think just the ability to take a time out quickly and give yourself a solid moment to really think could make all the difference between making the right decision and making it back home or making the wrong decision and getting into worse trouble. Having an easily erected, no-hassle Bothy allows one to do that. You just throw it over you, sit down, bust out the map and figure it out in peace (for example). You may not be so inclined to stop and take a breather to think if you don't want to deal with the hassle of setting up a tarp or dealing with a map with wind and rain blowing as you hunch over it in your poncho. Same concept behind the "sit down and make a cup of tea" idea.

I usually keep track of where I am, usually by terrain recognition with a map or through use of catching features, but if the weather turned on me suddenly or I needed to get down from on high really quickly, sometimes you need to alter your route to the most direct instead of the most enjoyable/scenic etc. Or even bushwacking may be the best answer on occasion. Sometimes you could be hiking or scrambling somewhere were changing weather (rain, fog, afternoon ice) makes it unsafe to move and you need to really sit and consider your options before plunging ahead. Hell, I've done trails at home before where you cross over a stream only to find it flash-flooded on your return and dangerous to cross, and if you wait it out, you could be there long after dark. Sometimes the best solution is to simply wait it out and move when things are safer. Murphy has his law, I just like to be reasonably prepared to deal with it. Having solid experience and sound judgement can take one far, but having a few things to stack odds further in your favor can take you even farther.
 
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I must have a crappy provider; I'm nearly always out of reception. And I am most often solo too. Leaving my plans with people and/or a car note is my only dependable external aid backup. That spare one phone is sweet, but I'm guessing it works on normal networks? I really should just pony up for a SPOT and subscription or ACR PLB or similar before dropping any more money on survival crap. If I'm in bad enough shape to be immobile, I am going to need to be evacuated, and the sooner the better. Everything else is a stop gap measure.

Yeah, I'm really sorry for the drift, no more from me!
 
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