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craytab

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That hold on a substantial amount of S!'s funds by PayPal is certainly problematic and I sincerely hope that if / when the business stabilizes as an ongoing concern, Survive! manages to get PayPal to wholly unfreeze and unblock the account. TBT about PayPal, if one really reads their TOS line by line, word for word; I then doubt if anyone would date to keep more than a mere few hundred $ on hand at any given time. Survive! ought to eliminate the PP payment option immediately so that as the deposits grow even larger without Survive! being the immediate beneficiary, they lessen future risks of trying to snatch that money back from the depth of PayPal's heavy handed business practices.
PayPal is protecting the customers and themselves because it has become clear survive is unable to. Any financial Institution that processes payments on-line would do a similar thing. Paypal laid it out quite clearly what the problems are. If survive goes under paypal would be on the hook. That is not fair to paypal or any bank really. What do you think would happen if survive only took credit card payments? Charge backs and whatever bank handling their payment process would get out quickly. How about cash or check? This exact situation minus paypal. The problem isn't paypal. The problem is and always has been making knives and issuing refund not from the money that those knive where purchased with. You don't spend money from a product you haven't made yet, not to mention one you took payment for 3 years earlier. That money is long gone.
 

SpyderPhreak

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PayPal is protecting the customers and themselves because it has become clear survive is unable to. Any financial Institution that processes payments on-line would do a similar thing. Paypal laid it out quite clearly what the problems are. If survive goes under paypal would be on the hook. That is not fair to paypal or any bank really. What do you think would happen if survive only took credit card payments? Charge backs and whatever bank handling their payment process would get out quickly. How about cash or check? This exact situation minus paypal. The problem isn't paypal. The problem is and always has been making knives and issuing refund not from the money that those knive where purchased with. You don't spend money from a product you haven't made yet, not to mention one you took payment for 3 years earlier. That money is long gone.

Coming from a completely objective party who has zero stake in this game and really couldn't care less how this all ends, I truly think the writing is on the wall here. I don't think it's a matter of IF Survive Knives goes under, it's more of a matter of WHEN. o_O

@Spark How long should this continue to be allowed here? The happenings in this particular forum are a black eye to BF as a whole. Survive's past business practices do not appear to be changing anytime soon, and it seems we're long past the point of keeping this sub-forum open to allow Survive to make amends. :confused:
 

shinyedges

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Considering people are still waiting for 2.5+ years, yea I think it is past the redemption point.

Why doesn't survive! Immediately take care of the folks waiting longest instead of selling to new customers? I say protect potential victims of this scheme and close the forum, put them in the hall of shame and hopefully prevent more people from losing their money and waiting for an undetermined amount of time.
 
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I have a question that might sound like a smart@ss one, but it is not intended to be...

With everything I read in here, why would anyone take the chance to be one of these people that wait for years and may not get a refund, when all the while there are better knives being offered here on BF by fellow members?
No doubt S!K makes a great product, but there are members here that can custom make you just about anything you can dream up. All in a timely manner, probably cheaper, probably a much better product.
I just don't get it.
 
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SURVIVE! Ellie said:
I admitted long ago, and several times since, that the Starter campaign and subsequent preorders were not the finest moment in SURVIVE! history. However, we did exactly what we said we were going to do at the time. We bought steel, equipment, invested in larger production run sizes, and contrary to what some people have claimed we even set funds aside to cover expenses during production. We also invested in the future of the business by making a down payment on the building, in hopes that we could soon move away from renting a finite space to owning somewhere with room to grow. This down payment was roughly equal to one third of an average production run. We still have over $60,000 of that steel, over $100,000 in equipment, several hundreds of knives worth of materials and several large deposits in to our vendors.

Read - Yes we funneled money from one business venture into a second. Survive LLC --> Seiferd Holdings LLC. That's going to bite you.

In addition to the above and money spent on bolstering run sizes, operating expenses, and refunds, PayPal is currently holding on to $21,000 (and growing). They say this hold is meant to be in case of refund requests, but then they won’t let us use the funds for any of the refunds that I issue. So it just sits there growing with each new PayPal purchase, until they start trickling some of it back to us in a few months. Here is a quote from the email we received from them:

“The decision regarding your reserve setting was based on our review of the level of risk associated with your account. We looked at several factors to determine the high level of risk associated with your account. These factors include:
· Delivery timeframe - Extended length of your delivery timeframe.
· High risk industry - You are selling merchandise or services in what we consider to be a high risk industry.
· High risk or changed business model – There has been a change in your business model or your business model is considered high risk due to one, or a combination of the following (list is not all inclusive) – how and when items or services are delivered, items or services being sold, or inventory management.”

We are curious to see what happens once the SK Series is fully operational, fixing the delivery timeframe and high risk/changed business model issues. Based on conversations with some other folks and the “high risk industry” statement, we are concerned PayPal may be sending the knife industry in the same direction it went with the gun industry. Time will tell.

Read - Due to the large volume of complaints and chargebacks Paypal has limited our account due to selling products that have no specified delivery timeframe other than 'someday'. Of course that is not our fault so we are blaming Paypal for their risk mitigation policies (How dare they!) and the knife industry in general.
Good luck getting that limitation removed. It took 127 faxed documents to Paypal's internal fraud department.


As far as what our plan is to fix the ordering issues, we covered that here: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-new-survive.1501589/

Introducing the SK Series will help offset demand, so that we can focus exclusively on GSO Knives while folks can still get a really nice version of the same designs. The SK Series is still a product that needs to be made by people, it will be made more quickly but it still needs to be produced. We announced it ahead of production because we wanted to let folks know what our plan was to get out of the preorder rut. It also allowed us to get a better handle on how much interest there was so we would have a better idea of how many to order. If we don’t have enough they will sell out quickly and then we will all have to wait months for more. If we make too many we are going to have more money locked away in inventory.

More of the same ol same. Read our recycled monthly updates - Coming Soon!.

Things are starting to settle back in after the fire so we will be back in the workshop regularly again. We haven’t had a chance to update the delivery wording on the website yet but will be working on that over the next couple of weeks. I will make sure the refund requests are all issued by the end of next week. We will also hold off on adding any new weekly sales until we are caught up on those existing orders.

One would think you guys put out the fire and cleaned up the mess yourself with all the time off.


Bladeforums is an area that is meant to be a more relaxed and fun community environment. Because of the regular accusations that have already been addressed and the random spamming, Guy won’t come here right now. He beats himself up enough, he doesn’t need you guys to do it for him. He did talk with Lance and when he mentioned making a post Guy hoped that would be enough to help appease some of the concerns.

The GBU is littered with people who use the bury the head in the sand approach.

We do provide regular updates and have been up front when we have encountered issues that will lead to further delays, including when it is something of a personal nature. We answer the phone any time we are in the office and Jordyn replies to every person’s emails and voicemails.

This part is the most laughable. Yes we answer everyone's email and calls right up until they ask for a refund. Then the runaround begins and you force your previously loyal and now lost customer to file a chargeback and deal with the aggravation of getting back their money. Besides losing them you also lost anyone they come into contact with.

Since this is more of an informal environment, we encourage anyone with questions or concerns to send us an email to our official inbox: info@surviveknives.com.

Read - Quit complaining on the forums where everyone can see. We want to keep it private to keep new orders flowing.


Survive! is a textbook example of how to take a great idea and sink it due to Inexperience, incompetence, under funding, mismanagement of assets, absurdly poor customer service skills, lies, and excuses.

Thank you for making it perfectly clear that you're simply trying to libel another business with your continued fact-free rhetoric and accusations.

It's also apparent from your aggressively hostile attitude that I never want to do business with you. I'm sure others will feel likewise.
 

shinyedges

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Oh, and I'd wager the small group here who condone lies and act oblivious to the facts, won't impact your business in the slightest.
 
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LOL, Touche!

Hope that you'll net at least 75 out of it :)




I find I can bear that discomfort with a great deal of fortitude. The facts are staring you in the face.

Thank you for making it perfectly clear that you're simply trying to libel another business with your continued fact-free rhetoric and accusations.

It's also apparent from your aggressively hostile attitude that I never want to do business with you. I'm sure others will feel likewise.
 
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To be clear, I never said the hold was PayPal's fault. If I was trying to spin it that way I wouldn't have included the quote from them, which clearly states where our business model doesn't match with their ideal vision for companies they work with. I included the information about PayPal's hold because one of the main topics in this thread is concerning where our funds are and I thought $21k was a large enough sum that it warranted a notation.

If you can't keep your comments on topic, then don't bother posting. If that sort of thing continues, I will ban the offending users from commenting in this thread and/or close the thread altogether.
 

craytab

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To be clear, I never said the hold was PayPal's fault. If I was trying to spin it that way I wouldn't have included the quote from them, which clearly states where our business model doesn't match with their ideal vision for companies they work with. I included the information about PayPal's hold because one of the main topics in this thread is concerning where our funds are and I thought $21k was a large enough sum that it warranted a notation.

If you can't keep your comments on topic, then don't bother posting. If that sort of thing continues, I will ban the offending users from commenting in this thread and/or close the thread altogether.
So how are customers who request refunds getting them now?
 
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To be clear, I never said the hold was PayPal's fault. If I was trying to spin it that way I wouldn't have included the quote from them, which clearly states where our business model doesn't match with their ideal vision for companies they work with. I included the information about PayPal's hold because one of the main topics in this thread is concerning where our funds are and I thought $21k was a large enough sum that it warranted a notation.

If you can't keep your comments on topic, then don't bother posting. If that sort of thing continues, I will ban the offending users from commenting in this thread and/or close the thread altogether.

Thank you SURVIVE! Ellie SURVIVE! Ellie for the update and for enforcing some discipline to this rampant fear mongering being perpetuated by a few angry individuals.

I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see this sub forum return to a peaceful place for discussing our S!K, and regular updates about the progress you're making are critical to keeping people optimistic that their knives are forthcoming. :):thumbsup:
 

Casinostocks

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So how are customers who request refunds getting them now?

PayPal may decide to block a portion of the sum of monies in a PP account as a part of their risk management assessment and procedure, but that does not mean that they totally have shut the said account down or have completely frozen it. For instance S! may be allowed to have a current working balance with some limits in pace in order to facilitate a part of their business going concerns, i.e, receive funds for the knives which they sell as F-2nds, UBs and LEs. There is nothing wrong with this.

As with regards to your other post, I am fully well aware of PayPal's intricacies as I have been using them exclusively and continuously for the past 15 years in my own online business. Although I have never had any of these severe challenges which S! is experiencing, I do read through their updated policies and I find their policies becoming more fearsome for sellers. Of course, when bad people who use PayPal tend to abuse PayPal, PP spreads the risk and EVERYONE will have to pay in one form or another to mitigate their losses. This certainly is not an anomaly as it is common practice among insurance Cos, CC Cos, etc for mitigating their losses. The point which I was making was that PP is not really a "bank" and I very much doubt that it is FDIC insured! S! should have never kept those large sum$ in their PP account which has nothing to do with being a good and honest business which has no fear or being an atrocious business fearing its own shadow. Now that black of fund$ is locked up, S! will have to go through hoops to get its money released to them even long after if / when they manage to stabilize their business.

That was the point I was making that the heavier burden and the onus will be on the PP account holder to prove to PP that all's A-Okay. That's all.
 

gonebad395

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Thank you SURVIVE! Ellie SURVIVE! Ellie for the update and for enforcing some discipline to this rampant fear mongering being perpetuated by a few angry individuals.

I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see this sub forum return to a peaceful place for discussing our S!K, and regular updates about the progress you're making are critical to keeping people optimistic that their knives are forthcoming. :):thumbsup:

Enforcing some discipline? So the people that have gripes with this company are fear mongering? Peaceful place where the koolaid isn't stirred and no questions on their business practices are allowed because it makes waves? Why because the new people you hope to suck in are needed to pay for the knife you ordered months ago? Because you know your money went to pay for another's to be made?

You cannot deny all the questionable things going on with this company. And every time anything is brought up about it a new update is posted to appease the masses.
It all calms down and then there is hens house wishes being posted and I hope they do this I hope they do that. All of a sudden another I can't get a refund post or where is my knife it's been years happens.
So now ban a person or people calling you out on this bs? Close the thread because it isn't the praise you think you guys at survive deserve?
There is a reason PayPal has locked up your money they trust your business practices even less then the people here and they are making sure they don't get burned. You think they are going to release funds to you? The hoops you guys have to jump through to get money back are way to high.
I'm sure sitting around the fire one night when knife making was a hobby of guys and the talk of starting it full time sounded good. But as post after post of us unhappy customers happen it didn't work out like that. And now pride and debt have you stuck.
I hope you guys make a attempt to find a person to run your business because you guys seem to fail at that. I hope you make others right before asking anyone else for a dime.


Your last post was the best you thanked survive for the updates to keep people optimistic that their knives are comming. Hollowed post are just that hollow and it's been that way for a long time just to slow the complaints.
 
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craytab

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PayPal may decide to block a portion of the sum of monies in a PP account as a part of their risk management assessment and procedure, but that does not mean that they totally have shut the said account down or have completely frozen it. For instance S! may be allowed to have a current working balance with some limits in pace in order to facilitate a part of their business going concerns, i.e, receive funds for the knives which they sell as F-2nds, UBs and LEs. There is nothing wrong with this.

As with regards to your other post, I am fully well aware of PayPal's intricacies as I have been using them exclusively and continuously for the past 15 years in my own online business. Although I have never had any of these severe challenges which S! is experiencing, I do read through their updated policies and I find their policies becoming more fearsome for sellers. Of course, when bad people who use PayPal tend to abuse PayPal, PP spreads the risk and EVERYONE will have to pay in one form or another to mitigate their losses. This certainly is not an anomaly as it is common practice among insurance Cos, CC Cos, etc for mitigating their losses. The point which I was making was that PP is not really a "bank" and I very much doubt that it is FDIC insured! S! should have never kept those large sum$ in their PP account which has nothing to do with being a good and honest business which has no fear or being an atrocious business fearing its own shadow. Now that black of fund$ is locked up, S! will have to go through hoops to get its money released to them even long after if / when they manage to stabilize their business.

That was the point I was making that the heavier burden and the onus will be on the PP account holder to prove to PP that all's A-Okay. That's all.
Um, I can speculate too but in trying to stay on topic I was asking survive how these refunds are going out.....
 
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You cannot deny all the questionable things going on with this company.

S!K has its issues as any growing business has. I'm not defending the way they've handled those situations.

Your last post was the best you thanked survive for the updates to keep people optimistic that their knives are comming [sic].

Rational people like to base their decisions on fact, not emotion. Seeing progress is a fact. Regular communication builds trust by witnessing the progress. Then people who actually have skin in this game can make reasonable decisions based on what they see and know as fact.

Innuendo, rampant speculation and fear mongering like you've posted most of are not helpful.

Please stop your tirades and let reasonable people have a reasonable discussion about this based on facts, so we can decide what the risks are to our investments. Because there certainly are risks. But those risks are to be interpreted by the facts, not a bunch of rampant speculation.
 

Casinostocks

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