Positive News Concerning Cold Steel And 4034 Steel

goldie

goldie

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Seems like on the CS forums, Andrew Demko chimed in, and let everyone in as to whats going on.In addition to the 4034 trailmasters and Recon scouts, they are also going to make them and the kukris in CPM 3V as well, which is in my opinion extremely great news. im imagining 4034 will be more of their budget versions, which is perfectly fine and acceptable, and the 3v knives will be their higher end models.Wish it was mentioned in the begining,but this move is such a game changer.Id like to see an AD10 or Recon 1 in 3v as well.
 
I would be happy about this except that I have a feeling that the 3V ones will be priced somewhere in the stratosphere.... and the cheaper option sucks, so they will be giving you a choice between crap steel and a crap price. There wont be a middle ground here, this seems like a way to sell knives to the masses that are crummy steel, and if you want a nicer one you have to pay out the nose.... thats not the best way to treat customers. I like Cold steel but I dont like this.
 
We can only hope that they will price the knives fairly and competitively, as they usually do. Then again, an upmarket 3v production version of the Trail Master with micarta scales and a nice leather sheath might well be worth a $300+ asking price. Especially if they serialize them (eg #0175/2000) for collectors; imagine a matching set including both a Trailmaster and recon Scout. :):thumbsup: They don't have to be cheap. The price, as always, will depend on the details.

n2s
 
CVamberbonehead said:
I would be happy about this except that I have a feeling that the 3V ones will be priced somewhere in the stratosphere.... and the cheaper option sucks, so they will be giving you a choice between crap steel and a crap price. There wont be a middle ground here, this seems like a way to sell knives to the masses that are crummy steel, and if you want a nicer one you have to pay out the nose.... thats not the best way to treat customers. I like Cold steel but I dont like this.
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Let's wait and see. I rank 3V as pretty close to 52100 in performance, except less prone to rust and just as easy to hone to a hair-splitting edge (speaking of my Benchmade Puukko), so I'd be willing to pay a bit more. And manufacturers' prices can often be beaten by various dealers.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Let's wait and see. I rank 3V as pretty close to 52100 in performance, except less prone to rust and just as easy to hone to a hair-splitting edge (speaking of my Benchmade Puukko), so I'd be willing to pay a bit more. And manufacturers' prices can often be beaten by various dealers.
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Maybe, Im not sure if they have MAP pricing :) (my mortal enemy lol) which would suck. And to be fair, Ive never had any 3V steel, it might be great. I hope they will do right by us, but I dont have super high hopes for it to be honest. They have some really overpriced fixed blades (their other products are mostly good deals though, including the Chinese fixed blades) in my opinion, for example their Bowies are pretty pricy for a Taiwanese production knife (especially the San Mai stuff). With the way they price stuff Im thinking SOG and Cold Steel must use the same factory in Taiwan :D:rolleyes: lol.
It doesnt really matter for me, I like more traditional knives and I dont like Cold Steels rubber handles so I am probably not in the market anyway. Now if they brought out some fixed blades with stacked leather handles or micarta or something, then Id be interested. I just dont really go for the tactical stuff, and I dont baton wood so I cant see a use for a Trailmaster.
I dont mean to be negative, I like Cold Steel, but they are not above criticism. :)
 
not2sharp said:
We can only hope that they will price the knives fairly and competitively, as they usually do. Then again, an upmarket 3v production version of the Trail Master with micarta scales and a nice leather sheath might well be worth a $300+ asking price. Especially if they serialize them (eg #0175/2000) for collectors; imagine a matching set including both a Trailmaster and recon Scout. :):thumbsup: They don't have to be cheap. The price, as always, will depend on the details.

n2s
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I would like to see some micarta handle TM's again as well but I don't think CS will be selling them for $300 in a leather sheath. I think we will be disappointed, since an A2 TM in a shitty plastic sheath has a SRP of $260.

I have a TM old stock LNIB that I am going to cut the rubber grips off of and put Micarta. NOS TM's from the 1980's and 90's are going for $300 +. And Flight of the Intruder Bowies sell from $600 up. I am doing the same handle change for a 1980's SOG Tigershark with a leather sheath, that I had Gunblued.

You better believe Lynn Thompson knows what those old knives are selling for and if he decides to do something as unlikely as what we are talking about they will not be $300. A 3V Tai Pan in a plastic sheath has a retail of $380, no serial number no leather, no micarta. Luckily CS does not have MAP pricing. Personally I doubt if they will ever make leather sheaths again. I suppose we can always dream though, and if they do I will buy 6 of them.

Here's a serialized Intruder with a custom leather sheath and Blued finish.

i-GsRScbv-XL.jpg
 
I have posted these pics before, but wanted to add them here as well.

This MH in Taiwan made CPM-3V has offered incredible edge retention in my use.

A TrailMaster offered in this alloy would be fantastic, but if it’s over 150 dollars, it would be a hard sell for me with a rubber handle and this FRN sheath.

I would also think it would be smart to convex the edge to add strength to these large choppers though.
3F44DF78-7A93-4ED8-94C5-E848FDC144C4.jpeg E7A57051-C742-41E0-847D-3A5AC714D976.jpeg
 
MolokaiRider I know that is a good sign of edge retention Cause I am sure your'e out there dressing ferel pigs and putting it to some hard outdoor use.

Aloha from the Big Island
 
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vjb.knife said:
Luckily CS does not have MAP pricing.

i-GsRScbv-XL.jpg
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Cold Steel Knives said:
Yes, we implemented MAP. It's not fair to retailers to lose business to large corporate online stores. If you love BladeHQ/Knife Center/SMKW/etc as companies, why wouldn't you want to buy your knife through them now at the same price as Amazon, which would support them and companies who actually care about knife customers and culture? We're not out to make more money through this, we're out to make it fair for everyone to compete in business. It actually lowered the price of many knives by the way. Leveling the playing field is beneficial for everyone and allows us to treat all retailers consistently. It also helps combat counterfeits, unauthorized retailers that won't do good business with you as a consumer, and much more.

Many products and companies you use every day, from food to clothing, have this policy.
Click to expand...
 
MolokaiRider said:
I have posted these pics before, but wanted to add them here as well.

This MH in Taiwan made CPM-3V has offered incredible edge retention in my use.

A TrailMaster offered in this alloy would be fantastic, but if it’s over 150 dollars, it would be a hard sell for me with a rubber handle and this FRN sheath.
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I got a Master Hunter in 3V for $99, which to me was a great deal. With MAP I figure the same knife would now be closer to $150. You can see the increase in price by looking at some of the items that were available before and then now with MAP implemented, it's about a 50% increase in price on the higher end stuff. A 3V Trail Master will probably be closer to $300. Heck, look at the Recon knives vs. some of the AUS10 models out now, you can get a Recon with S35V cheaper than the AUS10 stuff.
 
MAP is a big mistake.
It goes against everything about a free market economy and artificially keeping prices inflated does not help brand perception.

They say it helps level the playing field but the only ones I see that go lower than MAP are Amazon and eBay.

How does that help the little guys???
 
willc said:
MAP is a big mistake.
It goes against everything about a free market economy and artificially keeping prices inflated does not help brand perception.

They say it helps level the playing field but the only ones I see that go lower than MAP are Amazon and eBay.

How does that help the little guys???
Click to expand...

a company choosing to use a MAP pricing structure doesn’t go against the free market. Free Market refers to free from government control and only that.
 
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=3V&ni=5217 Here is a chart of the ingredients.

Here is Zknives take on this steel:
"3V(Crucible) - Introduced in 1997. It's predecessor was now discontinued Vasco Die steel. SImply put, CPM 3V is a PM version of the Vasco Die steel. CPM 3V is one of the toughest tool steels available, especially interesting considering its high wear resistance. In other words, there are other tougher tool steels, AISI S1 steel for example, but none that have comparable wear resistance. CPM 3V also has 7.5% which definitely helps with corrosion resistance, although it is not a stainless steel. Initially, when the steel was new, Knife Steel FAQ stated it'd develop pitting instead of the surface rust. More recent tests show the opposite, even after prolonged exposure to the elements, CPM 3V didn't develop pitting, just a surface rust. I suppose, if left outside in aggressive environment, CPM 3V would eventually develop pitting, but not before or in place surface rust. When maximum toughness is required, combined with very good wear resistance, 3V is a great choice. CPM 3V also works very well for small fixed blades and folders are high hardness 62-64HRC. Edge stability is very high even at 63HRC, because of its high toughness, and you won't have edge dulling due to microchipping, which does happen for many alloys at that hardness."

This is a serious upgrade, better than 0-1, A-1, 52100, Carbon V, and etc.
 
goldie said:
In addition to the 4034 trailmasters and Recon scouts, they are also going to make them and the kukris in CPM 3V as well, which is in my opinion extremely great news. im imagining 4034 will be more of their budget versions, which is perfectly fine and acceptable, and the 3v knives will be their higher end models.
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My prediction, worth the price you're paying for it:

They're going to bring out a bunch of big, normally expensive knives, in 4034. They're going to start offing their 'Lite' series or transition their lite series to one-off knives that aren't inexpensive versions of their expensive knives. They'll then just start offering their normally expensive knives at very low prices with no other moniker but in 4034 steel. People who were on the fence about every purchasing a Trailmaster but were scared of the price will see there is one offered for just under $100 dollars, and another offered for $350. They'll assume there's no way Cold Steel would produce a bad version of one of their iconic products and they'll opt for the less expensive version trusting that it will perform well. They'll see a TON of these.
 
KenHash said:
https://tinuiti.com/blog/amazon/minimum-advertised-price/#:~:text=A MAP price is a,product at $50 or more.
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Thanks Ken. I see. So there seems to be pros and cons. As long as the 3V knives are priced “fairly,” which would vary depending on who you’re asking, it shouldn’t be too problematic. From a consumer standpoint though, it would suck to not purchase something under the MAP of, let’s say, $325 for a Trailmaster from legal resellers.

Do other major knife companies do this? E.g. Spyderco, KAI, Benchmade? Also, does the MAP policy hold true indefinitely even after the knife is discontinued?
 
willc said:
MAP is a big mistake.
It goes against everything about a free market economy and artificially keeping prices inflated does not help brand perception.

They say it helps level the playing field but the only ones I see that go lower than MAP are Amazon and eBay.

How does that help the little guys???
Click to expand...

MAP is not price fixing. It's maintaining brand value and ensuring that a product is available at more than a handful of gigantic retailers at an ADVERTISED price.

Heres the skinny on MAP: It's billed as something that makes things fair for all dealers. If I am Joe's knife shop and my buying power allows me to buy a Spyderco Endura for, say, $50 and MAP is $75 (totally made up, but just easy math), then I am able to make a $25 profit. Say that a large outfit like Amazon has buying power that purchases the same knife for $45, they still have the availability to make $30. Of course, this ignores the fact that Amazon would probably be fine with selling 10,000 knives at $50 than Joe selling 100 at $75. But the idea remains that money can still be made. Anti capitalism at its finest, right?

Ehhhhh, not so fast. Point 2: No matter how much it looks like the world runs on high volume/low margin online sites, A LOT of business for a manufacturer comes from brick and mortar dealers which buy from the linchpin of durable goods...distributors. You know who hates online sales more than brick and mortar guys? The guys who SELL to brick and mortar guys. Now we are getting down to the $$$ of things that lays under the whole "well, we wanna be fair and groovy with all our little dudes!" spin on MAP. We are no longer talking about Joe's Knife Shop buying 10 knives. We are talking about Knife-Ex Global doing a $200,000 early buy on the limited edition glow in the dark pink FRN handle Endura. These cost a premium and Knife-Ex wants to make sure they have them in stock and ready to ship because they have already sold them out to dealers. Knife-Ex is a loyal purchaser and does not want to compete with Amazon directly with Spyderco. Knife-Ex may buy smaller volumes, but they are more profitable and CONSISTENT. MAP makes it possible to sell to both the BnM supplier and the faceless online juggernaut.

Finally, MAP pricing preserves brand value. We can all ride around on our 100% Free Market Ponies and thumb our noses at the ignorant commies (ie, everything that isn't completely market driven), but everything can be had cheaper if you want it to be. Your car, your TV,....YOU. Someone out there is just as qualified as you are at your job and WILL do it cheaper. Why should the bosses pay you what you make? Or if you own your own business, why shouldn't someone just find a cheaper place to get your goods/service? Its all about the $$$, right? I don't care about the intangibles of what you offer. I want CHEAP. Free Market, baby. Compete or starve. Its the American way;)

Finally, MAP does not stop a supplier from SELLING below that price. It stop them from ADVERTISING below it. It's actually fairly toothless when you get down to it, yet people make it sound like it reads like a Communist Manifesto best read while enjoying terrible vodka and excellent cigars.
 
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DangerZone98 said:
Thanks Ken. I see. So there seems to be pros and cons. As long as the 3V knives are priced “fairly,” which would vary depending on who you’re asking, it shouldn’t be too problematic. From a consumer standpoint though, it would suck to not purchase something under the MAP of, let’s say, $325 for a Trailmaster from legal resellers.

Do other major knife companies do this? E.g. Spyderco, KAI, Benchmade? Also, does the MAP policy hold true indefinitely even after the knife is discontinued?
Click to expand...

Spyderco and Benchmade do. As well as others. See this thread-
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/which-knife-brands-require-map-pricing.1706565/
 
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