Positive News Concerning Cold Steel And 4034 Steel

whp said:
Hmm.
I don t think the term "free market" is necessarily connected to government control. I think it is an economic term meaning businesses are allowed to buy and sell items as they wish. But in the case of the knife makers, with MAP enforced pricing, they take the control of the market from their retailers. To the detriment of the consumers. Hopefully the consumers will avoid items with MAP controlled pricing.
As a small business man (very small!), I prefer to sell my services at the price I choose.
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True MAP, like how it is meant to be used, still means you sell the knife at whatever you want. You want to sell a Spyderco Endura for $3.99? Knock yourself out. You can make as many poor business decisions as you like. What you can't do is send out an advertisement or list it on your site below the price Spyderco says.

You could take 100 Enduras to a local show and sell them for 200 or 20 bucks, what you can't do is take an ad out in the local paper and advertise them under what Spyderco says.

The market is still free. All they are saying is that you have to be mindful of not trying to throw out a crazy low price when you advertise it.

Notice how I used the word "advertise" or "advertisement" 3 times. Sell it for what you want in your shop or make people "add to cart to see price" all you want. The man is not holding anyone down.
 
Nothing wrong with CS AUS-8... I had a metric pile of their stuff back in the day.

I love it for the ease of maintenance, and the affordability, and how stupid sharp I can get it.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
Then what you are talking about is not MAP. Minimum Advertised Pricing. It's a numbers/marketing thing. It's just like MSRP. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. It's a feel-good way to give a customer what the feel is a deal and not lose your shirt. MSRP is $99.99. My cost is $45. I sell it for $70 and they "save" nearly 30.

Actually making BnM shops adjust their pricing and not their advertised pricing is price fixing. I would be curious to know what brands these are so that I can avoid them.
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I hope a lot of people feel this way. The guilty manufacturers might be easy to find. Just call several of your favorite knife retailers, and ask for a purchase price below the MAP. If you get consistent refusals to come off the MAP, then the manufacturer or retailer is guilty of this price fixing.
See, that doesn't t sound so hard.
 
whp said:
Hmm.
I don t think the term "free market" is necessarily connected to government control. I think it is an economic term meaning businesses are allowed to buy and sell items as they wish. But in the case of the knife makers, with MAP enforced pricing, they take the control of the market from their retailers. To the detriment of the consumers. Hopefully the consumers will avoid items with MAP controlled pricing.
As a small business man (very small!), I prefer to sell my services at the price I choose.
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I too own a small business and sell my services at a price of my own choosing. I also understand that if I wish to sell someone else’s products, I may have to follow their rules. Free market is a macro term. You are attempting to apply it to something much smaller.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
Then what you are talking about is not MAP. Minimum Advertised Pricing. It's a numbers/marketing thing. It's just like MSRP. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. It's a feel-good way to give a customer what the feel is a deal and not lose your shirt. MSRP is $99.99. My cost is $45. I sell it for $70 and they "save" nearly 30.

Actually making BnM shops adjust their pricing and not their advertised pricing is price fixing. I would be curious to know what brands these are so that I can avoid them.
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Some of the companies mix their terminology for their authorized dealer programs up and roll the MAP requirements in there. There are some amazingly restrictive sections to user agreements for some of the major knife brands. It would take a book full to show all of them, but here are a few of the most surprising. These sections are from various manufacturers agreements with resellers but are pretty common to most of the companies that demand compliance. I am not saying it is right or wrong but here it is. Manufacturers names have been deleted. I am sorry but I am not willing to show who is making these statements for fear of reprisal. There are many more similar and more innovative restrictions than these out there. But these statements are directly out of several of these agreements that resellers are bound by.

Seller will not commingle its inventory with that of other resellers;

For each occasion that Reseller breaches Sections of this Agreement by engaging in the unauthorized Internet sale of Products to any person or entity, in addition to all other remedies available to Manufacturer under this Agreement or at law or equity, Reseller agrees to pay Manufacturer, as liquidated damages and not as a penalty, the following amount: five times the MSRP of the Product(s).

Seller shall never sell on Internet marketplaces not included on List including, but not limited to: eBay.com, Amazon.com, Sears.com, Craigslist.com, Overstock.com, Jet.com, Alibaba.com, Walmart.com, Target.com, Homedepot.com, newegg.com, Wayfair.com, taobao.com or any website related to these websites.

According to Manufacturer, Internet only businesses will NOT be approved. Only Retailers with actual storefronts are approved.

All Advertised Prices for Covered Products and sets (sometimes referred to as “bundling”) be no less than the MAP price. This Policy applies to all retail directed catalogues and mailings, and to all emails, websites and other forms of solicitation of customers for Covered Products, including without limitation the offering of Covered Products via the websites of others via links.

In order to protect the value of manufacturers brands, logos, trademarks, as well as to reduce supply chain volatility, manufacturer has unilaterally established Minimum Pricing. The Policy is in relation to each Dealer with respect to all products for which the price list or product list provided or otherwise made available to the dealer. This policy is to remain confidential at all times.

The inclusion in advertising of free or discounted products (whether made by us or another manufacturer with our product covered by MAP would be a violation of this Policy if it has the effect of discounting theadvertised price of the covered product below the specified MAP.

Manufacturer states that dealers are free to make their own decisions to advertise and sell any or our products at any price they choose, without consulting manufacturer. Manufacturer will make it’s own decisions regarding our products authorized reseller program.

Failure to comply with all of the terms in the Manufacturer’s Authorized Reseller Requirements will result in suspension or termination of your account.
 
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If my local retailer is truly allowed to sell at what ever price he/she desires but, must advertise at a set standard because of MAP, I can live with that.

But, when they tell me that they are not allowed to sell below MAP price, they are not being honest.

I don’t like being feed a line of BS.
 
sabre cat said:
If my local retailer is truly allowed to sell at what ever price he/she desires but, must advertise at a set standard because of MAP, I can live with that.

But, when they tell me that they are not allowed to sell below MAP price, they are not being honest.

I don’t like being feed a line of BS.
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This is the double edge sword of MAP IMHO. It's a tool to get your foot in the door, to play with the big boys, sure. However, when used as a crutch, i don't get it. I would rather have a dealer tell me that their company policy is to sell at MAP rather lie and say that their hands are tied making it impossible for foe the consumer to potentially negotiate.

Look, I get it. I dont negotiate on my goods or services. What you are getting from me (expert advice, fair price, and instant feedback on a question) is worth more than what MAP is set st for my products (which some manufacturers do have in place in my industry).

However, even my MAP products I have the right to SELL at whatever level I prefer. And truthfully, MAP is so damn toothless that the only way a manufacturer knows you are breaking the policy is if a customer/competitor tattles on you. At that, you will most likely receive 4 or 5 calls, 3 or 4 letters, and a piece of certified mail that reiterates the MAP policy before anything really happens to you.

Let's be clear: MAP is there to help you sell against box stores and keeps manufacturers from having to take sides on the volume vs BnM side. Regardless, they win insomuch as they dont lose ALL the distribution sales.
 
:rolleyes: I've been buying stuff for 60+ yrs and lots of knives for 40+ yrs .

IMO and extensive experience , MAP and all similar price controls just end up costing the consumer more money by eliminating competition at the retail level . :mad::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

All the justifications given are weak and meaningless to my mind (and aching pocket book ) . :confused:

But not all MAP is equally applied by every knife company . :)

So far , Cold Steel seems to be less strict and good deals can still be discovered if you search and are patient . :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Steely_Gunz said:
...Let's be clear: MAP is there to help you sell against box stores and keeps manufacturers from having to take sides on the volume vs BnM side. Regardless, they win insomuch as they dont lose ALL the distribution sales.
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Well, they lost some sales from me.

A Kershaw Echelon was one that they lost. They were asking $79 bucks and refused to deal. That’s their right and I get it. I bought the same knife elsewhere for less than fifty dollars. I think I paid about $45 for it.

If a dealer is within 10% of another retailer I usually will just buy and not try to haggle.

But, the difference between $79 and $45 is just to big for me to ignore.

I seem to shop based upon how I am treated more than just who has the lowest price.
 
sabre cat said:
Well, they lost some sales from me.

A Kershaw Echelon was one that they lost. They were asking $79 bucks and refused to deal. That’s their right and I get it. I bought the same knife elsewhere for less than fifty dollars. I think I paid about $45 for it.

If a dealer is within 10% of another retailer I usually will just buy and not try to haggle.

But, the difference between $79 and $45 is just to big for me to ignore.

I seem to shop based upon how I am treated more than just who has the lowest price.
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I get that, but honestly, most manufacturers don't really care where you bought the knife. See, you didn't buy from a shop due to price. Totally makes sense. We all purchase based on needs/wants/timetables/etc. However you still bought the knife. Its still a win for Kai. Kai says you can't advertise below this point and the dealer treats that as a minimum selling price (which is a fair strategy as it work a lot of the time. It got me to buy my first ZT, and that was from a BnM because they were the same price as Amazon). OK, so they don't budge and you buy it from another dealer (online or otherwise). Kai still gets the the win. On top of that, Kai doesn't even care if YOU buy the knife. Its sold to distributors or bulk buyers first. They still warrant it and want it to be popular so they can sell more...in bulk, but they dont really care if you paid $50 or $80 as long as they make their $35 a piece and keep big online sellers and BnM (and thus distributors) happy enough to keep buying their knives.

MAP has never been about being fair or fixing price. Its basically just a way for little businesses to not get bowled over out of the gate by the window dressing low online pricing where the seller has no storefront, employees, and sometimes no sales tax to collect. However people TREAT the policy is up to them, but it really seems to be more of a manufacturer having its cake and eating it too based on making sure its main purchasers feel like they are getting a fair shake.
 
Good post. Doubtful any of the big dealers buy factory direct. Even if they did they would probably get "distributor" prices, which washes out to the same net to the manufacturer.

Distributors came about to allow the headaches of small orders, managing hundreds of receivable accounts that create all their own mess and to allow the manufacturer to do what they do best, hopefully R&D and production.

Robert
 
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This thread has been enlightening for me. After a favorite manufacturer of mine would adopt MAP, I would just order a knife online from a favorite retailer based on the MAP price. After a while I would get tired of the relatively inflated prices represented by the MAP, and move on to another manufacturer. Now it seems that to price shop , one needs to call the retailer s customer service to find out what the real sales price might be.
Why do I think that more times than not I ll be told the advertised price is the real sales price? I m usually an optimist by nature.
We ll see.
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe the success of MAP as an equalizer depends on most people not realizing they can purchase the knives below MAP. So even if MAP is not an actual price fix, it serves as a defacto price fix.
 
So the "positive" or "good" news is CS is going to make some of the knives in both 4034 and 3V, and charge at least 10x or more for the 3V version?
How is that "positive news" concerning 4034? Announcing they will be making some of the knives in both 4034 and 3V has nothing to do with 4034.
How does this affect 4034? It doesn't.
 
whp said:
The more I think about it, the more I believe the success of MAP as an equalizer depends on most people not realizing they can purchase the knives below MAP. So even if MAP is not an actual price fix, it serves as a defacto price fix.
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Exactly.

Call it what you will but, effectively it is price fixing and ultimately hurts the consumer.

Especially when you add a 20% increase to the consumer (Benchmade, this means you).
 
sabre cat said:
Exactly.

Call it what you will but, effectively it is price fixing and ultimately hurts the consumer.

Especially when you add a 20% increase to the consumer (Benchmade, this means you).
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No. You can become completely fixated on the per knife price and think you're being hurt if you want, but without MAP, the only place you're buying knives is Walmart and the big river site because no one else will be able to compete. They will sell them well below cost and can easily absorb it until the competition shuts down. They do it all the time with non-MAP products. And then they are free to do what they want because your choices as a consumer are extremely limited.

MAP exists across all manner of products and as Steely_Gunz Steely_Gunz said, it is there to level the playing field and avoid monopolies. For all those who hate MAP, I sure hope you don't shop those two sellers I mentioned for any reason as they are notorious for taking advantage of non-MAP priced goods. And price fixing? Yeah. For example, several years ago, Big W told the music industry they had to list their CD's at something like $15.99. The music industry screamed and said no way. Big W said, we'll stop selling them. Because they didn't mean squat to their bottom line. The music industry caved as Big W meant everything to their bottom line. Now, a short term thinking consumer would be happy as they are getting the product cheaper. But all it was intended to do was make it hard on the local shops to stay competitive.

You don't have to like MAP but I suspect you'd like a non-MAP world a lot less.
 
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jdk1 said:
OP, please edit the thread title to "MAP Pricing: Good or Evil? "
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I apologize for the thread drift. We have had plenty of threads on MAPs pros/cons, and I dont think me chiming in is going to illuminate anything that hasn't already already been presented. Folks are either going to fall on one side or the other.

I do sincerely apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread.
 
I also apologize for my drift away from the original post.

As a Cold Steel fan, I m glad that they re maintaining their commitment to quality, in this case with a choice of materials.
 
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