Pounding a Custom knife into submission!

Holly smokes! Folks are brutal on a guy who is just proud of his (rather nice looking) work. I think we've all reinvented the wheel at one time or another in our lives. Most of us just didn't have a forum full of some of the best experts critiquing us and a couple of "busy bodies" around trying to beat the creativity out of us. If your trying to discourage creativity in the next round of makers, I don't think it will work on Mr. Hankins.
Perhaps for the next challenge, someone can try to pound their super duper ultra max cleaver of choice (production or custom) through Robert's skin. That skin has definitely held up to the poundings of the group here and taken all criticism (constructive or otherwise) in stride.
Robert, you are a gentleman and craftman of the highest order to sit back and take it all in. That sir, is character.
My hat is off to you.
recondoc
4th MarDiv 4th Rcnbn
 
While I was writing a reply to Wolfman, Recondoc posted ... and I agree with him. The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone who's trying to make tough knives. I'd like to help such people learn how to tell when they've succeeded ... and I really am trying to be polite about it.

That knife might really be very tough -- we won't know until we try to do something hard with it, though.


Originally posted by wolfmann601
I just gotta go run out and buy a custom and pound it into the radiator of my SUV. DUH....What does all this prove? Great stuff on BF lately.....:rolleyes:
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If you think this is great stuff lately you should read the archives.... :)

We are a tough crowd to impress, and the reason is: we've tried it. We've opened tin cans and pierced coins and chopped coins in half, and pierced sheet metal and chopped nails and chopped steel pipe, too; we've stabbed our knives into a stump and pried them out sideways; we've stuck knives into a dead tree and done pullups on them; we've rolled logs with them; we've tried all kinds of things that people who've never tried them might think were horribly abusive. Whenever we see an advertising claim we try it ourselves; and we've discovered even cheap knives can do those things and not be damaged at all. (Well, rolling logs is pretty demanding. You can bend or break most knives that way.)

Don't wreck your SUV -- go to a junkyard and ask them if they have a radiator they don't mind you poking holes in. They probably won't even charge you anything; they'll find it so entertaining watching you. Bring the cheapest knives you have ... you won't find any that can't pierce a radiator. Then you can cut the roof off a car -- that's a little harder; a cheap knife will need extensive resharpening after that; a really cheap knife will get so dull you'll have difficulty finishing the job. Don't take my word for it; try it yourself.

Anybody who wants to claim his knife can do something no production knife can do ... well, first he'll have to find something his knife can do and a Bushman can't. That shouldn't be too hard; the Bushman is made of soft-tempered carbon steel and it's not very thick. Then he can try to beat out a USMC combat knife. That's not impossible; it's only 1095 and it has a narrow tang. If he can beat out a milspec USMC combat knife (still made by Camillus; about $30 plus shipping) then he can claim to have made a tough knife ... but ... before he can claim his knife is tougher than any production knife he'll have to beat out the Battle Mistress, the Project 1, the Campanion ... good luck! We're all rooting for you! But as hard as we root for you, we'll still try everything you claim ourselves. And if you claim your knife is so incredibly tough it can do things we know knives that cost less than $15 can do ... well, we'll try to be polite about it. :)
 
Robert,

Nice knife, nice work! Keep it going bud, I think you're doing good so far!

Cougar,

Great posts...I always find them "to the point", informative, and a real hoot! Thanks again ;)

Cliff,

I've been wanting to say "hey" to ya ever since I heard disgruntled rumblings about you from some of the "custom" knife makers. What a hoot, you're doing a great job there bud! I hope you enjoy the "tests" as much as I (we) enjoy reading about them!

"Good on ya all" Keep up the good works guys...folks like you keep this knife collecting stuff fun!

Sheldon, AKA Mel
 
So tell me guys, any exoerience with AT Barr knives or Independence Cutlery knives in this abusive thread? (my apologies Mr. Busse, I haven't been able to fall in love with one of your knives yet)

jmx
 
Cougar. yes sir, you are CORRECT. I was just frustrated at how hard it is for ME to save to get a fine knife, and just found the torture test and the "tough crowd to please" posts a little hard to swallow. i now get the point!!!! (no pun). As far as sticking a knife into my SUV, I don't have ENOUGH knives and my SUV has way too thick a payment book!!!!!wolf:o
 
jmxcpter :

any exoerience with AT Barr knives or Independence Cutlery knives in this abusive thread?
Click to expand...

I checked out the ICC webpage some months back when I heard about it in another thread. Claiming "unbreakable" knives (stated on the webpage) and then having a heavily claused warrenty is the worst kind of hype. However I just rechecked the webpage this morning and the "unbreakable" part is gone. However durability is still highly stressed and the warrenty is still claused. Why not just go with Strider, they also use ATS-34, have a lot of designs and have a full warrenty.

The prices for ICC are also very high relative to what else you can find on the market. You are getting stock removal ATS-34. There are a host of people doing similar knives for a lot less. To be a little more specific check this out :

http://www.ICCKnives.com/SurvivalBowie1.jpg

It is $1000. I am getting two customs made now in that class. One will be forged 5160 (12"-14" blade), and the other stock removal 3V (~10" blade). The price of neither will be no where near $1000. And by custom I mean original design which will include prototyping on one of them, and extensive testing by the makers and I on both blades.

That being said, the money issue can be brought up for many knifemakers and how you judge worth is obviously personal. For example people complain about the cost of Busse Combat blades since they are production, however to me, the combination of function and warrenty suits the price. This is simply because there isn't anything better that is cheaper, if there was I would consider them overpriced by that simple rule.

Anyway, the knife in the above picture has a clean basic profile, however I would not want the double guard, nor finger grooves, but the handle looks like it has a nice swell and the end hook is at the right angle to give a good compromise between security and comfort. However as expected with ATS-34, the maker has commented that he leaves the edges thick, well that scraps it for me as I want a knife to cut well. If you have to over burden your edges with excessive cross section use another grade of steel which is more suited for the intended use of the knife.

I would suggest the Running Dog Knife company, you will not see a lot of the current rage of "tactical" promotion on the webpages, the knives are just about function. However they do use L6 which is pretty near ideal for a heavy use knife, and they do full custom work.

Melvin, thanks, and yes, I would bet I enjoy it even more.

-Cliff
 
I've never had any customers complain. So far only one person has damaged one, I replaced it, and he is happy with it.

As for "custom" goes, I'm glade to work on anyone design. As I've always done. I'm sorry you don't seem to like my work, and prices.

To me, it is important that my customers are satisfied.
 
Hello Cliff,

First I would like to say that I respect you and your evaluations very much. They offer a resource that is benificial to all of us.
With that being said I would like to say that I have owned and used 3 knives that came out of the shop of ICC, a special Combat Model 6, and yes a Survival Bowie, as well as a model 7 prototype. All these knives were very well crafted. The guards were all hand ground and shaped as well as the handles. The web site no longer says " Unbreakable Thus Far " because I am the person, the only person so far that has broken one of these knives. The knife in question was the special model 6. I was pounding it through a large chunk of seasoned Rock Maple with another chunk of Rock maple impacting the spine. It went through the first chunk with out a hitch. It broke going through the second large lengthy piece. It was not a dramatic failure, it was mearly a 1.5 inch section of the spine. The knife was still very much servicable after. The point is not weather the knife could acomplish this, the point is this, I called Dennis after recieving the knife I told Dennis that I did not think the knife would hold up to what I use a knife for, I told him why I did not think the knife would hold up. Dennis listened and then said that if the knife breaks he would fix it or replace it, all he wanted to know was how it broke if it in fact broke. So this is my point, I told Dennis I was going to break the knife, I told him how it was going to break he still replaced that knife with another that was worth 3 times what I paid for the model 6. He sent me the Survival Bowie. The Survival Bowie was huge but moved in the hand like it was alive, no bull$hit. The edge was not thick. I did not get a chance to take it out and really beat on it. But I did get a chance to cut with it. I used it to demolish two very large thick applience cardboard boxes, which equals to alot of cardboard. It sliced very well, very well. The knife was like a great big razor, after this test it had lost its edge. All it took to get it back was stropping on a Flitz indused leather strop. I did test the flex on the blade by wedging it into the boards on my deck just behind the swedge. I put my full weight(265lbs) on the handle. The blade flexed some but it did not snap. That was good enough for me. I did end up swapping the Bowie with Dennis for the prototype model 7 as it met my needs more than the Bowie. Had I had the money to get it as well I would have. But hey I am just an LEO with a family to support so I dont have all kinds of cash kicking around. There is a review of the mod 7 I posted a couple weeks ago on the General Knife forum. As far as the Guarantee on these knives, its a no bull$hit guarantee. Let the man know how you broke the knife he made and he will fix or replace it at no charge to the consumer. Please don't knock it before you try it.
It really is quite a knife.

Take care all,

Matt
 
This is the broken Combat Model 6. The knife "survived" and could still be used, somewhat. This failure has caused me to leave out the slot, but I still have 2 already made. I haven't decided to put a blood groove, or leave it plain. What do ya'll think?

200110257006938207419844.jpg
 
Well, I think it will be stronger if you leave it plain, and if that is your goal, there's your answer. By the way, it's nice to hear about a maker living up to their guarantee.
 
To me knives are a somewhat emotional purchase (as are most purchases). They have to stimulate some part of my brain that says,
"I need that" for whatever reason. These reasons run the gamut between real need (for work,like a carpet knife for a carpet installer), perceived need (self defence, although this is real need for many of us, more important for LEO) and just plain lust (like what I felt when I held an INCREDIBLE John Smith damascus folder that I will never be able to afford yesterday). But nearly all buying decisions involve emotion more than logic (trust me, I've been in sales a long time). It's why some women end up with over 100 pairs of similar shoes (I'm not a women's shoe salesperson, just an observation).

For me, the knife in question (big assed survival/ fighter)falls between perceived need and pure emotion. The bottom line is that I want a nearly indestructible big knife that will do everything. Cliff Stamp seems to do tests that I would never think of and really takes a given knife to it's limits. I have to respect him for that and will probably end up with a Busse Steel Heart E because of him. His reviews are priceless and I mean that in the deepest sense. However, after considering all the options, the knife I really lust for is a Randall Special #1 fighter. It comes closest to the knife I've been mentally searching for. Beautiful lines and and a great long term reputation. I am also still enamoured with the ICC Combat model 5A1 as well. Given a long enough timeline I will probably end up owning all three of them. The Busse may end up being the one I buy first and beat on most. We'll see.

The big question now is, which to buy first (as it may facilitate me living long enough to buy the other two!) not that I'm in iminent danger , being a Hifi salesman, but you never know.

Glad to have your opinions.

jmx

PS: Even if AT Barr's Combat bowie falls out of this mix, I really want one of his knives, especially one of his folders (incredible work!).
 
Jim :

I'm sorry you don't seem to like my work, and prices.
Click to expand...

There are quite a number of designs that strike me quite strongly actually. Yes there are features I would change, but
I can say the same about any knife. I don't think I have ever handled or even seen a knife that I would not want to see
alterated in some way. In regards to prices, as I said it is simply a decision based on what is available in the same
price range.

Matt :

The edge was not thick.
Click to expand...

I am basing my comments in the above, mainly on statements that Jim has made on the forum. However my own experience
with ATS-34 is that it will not hold up to the same kind of treatment as the much tougher tool steels in lower cross
sections, thus this kind of edge geometry is necessary and therefore expected. Yes they can be sharp, but they will
suffer a gross disadvantage in regard to cutting on binding materials as compared to thinner ground knives.

As far as the Guarantee on these knives, its a no bull$hit guarantee.
Click to expand...

Jim has stated on the forums that the guarantee is claused, that he reserves to refuse coverage if the action was not
within reason. Now there has been a large amount of debate on this in the past on the forums, personally my take is
simple. There are makers with whom this is not an issue and they are willing to work with designs and materials that I
want to explore so I don't see any need to not have the security.

Jim :

I haven't decided to put a blood groove, or leave it plain. What do ya'll think?
Click to expand...

It is a simple decision, do you want looks at the cost of function or function at the cost of looks. If you are trying
to lighten the knife then use a higher flat grind on thicker stock, you will gain a higher strength to weight ratio and
can thus lighten the knife without losing strength as that hollow puts a glaring weakness along the spine.

JMX :

However, after considering all the options, the knife I really lust for is a Randall Special #1 fighter. It comes
closest to the knife I've been mentally searching for. Beautiful lines and and a great long term reputation.
Click to expand...

Bottom line it is your knife, even if you go with a knife that is not quite as functional as the top choice, but it
pleases you more to use because of its looks then odd are that you will end up with a knife that for the most part is
more functional as enjoying the work that you are doing can drastically reduce the effort required. Personally it isn't
an issue with me as my perspective is simply one of function, but if it wasn't I would not have always went with the
knives I did.

-Cliff
 
My thoughts are that I would more likely buy the Busse to go and whack about in the bush with it, while the Randall might well just stay in the safe. I wouldn't want to have a weaker knife in the field (not saying that the Randall is weaker, but I'll never test them like you do) but I'd feel less guilty beating the Busse than the Randall.

The form of the Randall Special Fighter just appeals to me, not just visually, bit in many ways, in a practical sense. The Busse may be more indestructible, but the Randall may be a better fighter! Between the better hand guards and the piercing point, the strengths might outweigh the overall structural superiority of the Busse (if in fact there is one), although the full tang on the Busse would indicate that the Busse has a structural advantage). The difference in balance might turn the tables in a tactical environment. I'm not an expert, these are just my suppositions.

jmx
 
What would the purpose be other than aesthetic?


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
jmxcpter :

[Randall]

the better hand guards and the piercing point
Click to expand...

Yes, the full Combat line does have fairly thick points, they will not handle soft penetration targets nearly as well as blades with sharpened top edges. However on hard targets they are more robust, it is a trade off, one suitable I think for a heavy use knife, prying as well is more easily tolerated which is sensible given the scope of work.

Balance as well is an issue as you mention. The Randall is quite probably much more neutral balanced which means it will feel near weightless in hand compared to a Busse from the Combat line. There is a trade off here again, a lower fatigue rate for swings against light targets for a reduced power in the cut.

Busse does offer a series of models with several of these features :

http://www.bussecombat.com/images/pbf/pbf_home.gif

You have here a much slimmer point with top edge for enhanced penetration. A top guard / blade catch, and a grip optomized for retention even in the worst case senario. The point is also inline with the center of thrust, the angled handle on the combat line will reduce point thrusting ability slightly.

-Cliff
 
Thanks for testing your knfe like that, Robert.

To add to the discussion, I'd like to say that I really like a lot of Cold Steel's knives. Why? because they made a test video and distribute it very cheaply. It may be the case that you can do a lot of "hard use" thinks with cheap production knives. Actually, it may be the case that you can do a whole lot of hard use things with expensive production and custom knives too. But Cold Steel actually SHOWS you that they can be done with THEIR knives. That instills consumer confidence. Notice that Javahead (hey Java, I'm still enjoying my Blackhawk stuff!) decided to look into the Tac 11 BECAUSE of the pic of the knife pressed trhough the plate. Likewise, I not have seen that one of Robert's knives can be pressed through a 1/8" plate of mild steel. To date I have made 5 knives and none have been pressed through a plate of steel. If I made a knife just like Robert did and tried to market it to a survival interested customer, even if we used the same materials and same heat treat and such, he has the plate pressing experience behind him. Pretty cool.
Oh, and also this is Robert's journey through knifedom. I need to learn how to solder on a guard yet! Robert is experimenting with knife design/heat treat. Re-inventing the wheel is a very good exercise if you learn from it.
 
I have carried a CS med voyager as an EDC for a couple years until recently replacing it with a Small Sebenza so I'm quite familiar with th ecompany. I've also recently had a good experience with an out of warranty folder with a broken clip from this company and all I can say is that they understand customer service. Great marks to Cold Steel, but I've looked at their big knives and none said "take me home".

I'm sure they're fine, just not for me this time.

jmx
 
Mr Stamp,
I'm not sure if it's ok for me to use Dennis' id to post this, but our computer won't let me register, keeps saying that I'm already registered. So, I'm doing this.
Our warranty is designed to protect both the customer and us. If you buy one of our knives, and break it in the field, we will replace it with another knife either of the same design, of one that we (Dennis and the customer) feel will better suit the need. If the customer chooses to get another knife of the same design, and breaks it doing the same thing as when he broke the first one, we more than likely will replace it, too. But there will be a stipulation on the third knife nullifying the warranty of the knife is broken doing the same thing as the last two. Also, our warranty covers usage, not putting it in a vice of some kind and purposefully breaking it, using pressure and torque that is above that which the average man will do. Alot of time and care goes into each knife, and the thought of someone doing such a thing to one of our knives, just makes us ill.

I hope this clears up the question about our warranty. Also, I'm responding because I am the one who built the site and put the stipulation on the warranty, therefore, it is my responsibility.

I forgot to tell you who I am. I am Dennis' wife, Myra.
 
Hello Crayola,

This thread is a couple months old but I just recieved the Cold Steel video you mentioned with an order from Special Projects. As I watched the video, I found myself wondering, "how much of this is really relevant to a knife's intended use?" After all, how many people flex knives in vises and bust concrete blocks with them? I think the idea behind knives is to cut things (other than car hoods). The rope cutting demonstrations may be relevant, but I am not so sure about the other things.
 
Welcome to Bladeforums, Myra! You need a separate email address of your own to register here. If you don't have one already you can get a free email account at www.yahoo.com (or a lot of other places). Hotmail is banned from Bladeforums (and much of the net) because Hotmail (owned by Microsoft) is uncooperative about dealing with abusers, but all other anonymous email providers are allowed here.

W. T. Beck: The short explanation is we do things like flexing knives in vises and chopping concrete in order to find out in a reasonable time and in reproducible conditions how a knife can be expected to hold up over long periods of heavy use and in emergencies and accidents in the real world. The long version is this whole forum, and you might also have a look at Cliff's website....

On first encountering the tests posted in this forum it's not uncommon for people to think we're a bunch of lunatics. In fact some of the heavier testing we do is not relevant to everyone -- for instance, some people never chop wood with a knife because they never go into the woods without a full-size ax, or simply never go into the woods.

If you do chop wood with a knife, or might have to someday ... well, you could take a dozen different knives and try chopping wood with them, and find out how and when they fail by continuing to chop wood until they all fail, and find out what'll happen when you hit a knot or a nail or a rock, too, by continuing to chop wood until all those things happen to all the knives you're testing ... multiple times each....
 
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