Precautions using pre-ban ivory?

JeridJohnson

JeridJohnson

Joined
Jun 30, 2004
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376
Been in discussions with a client about using some pre ban ivory he has on a knife project. Are there any gotchas I should be aware of or precautions I should take prior to taking possession of it?

I've done some research and it appears to be OK to use and return to him however I thought I'd check with this group for additional input.

Thanks,
Jerid
 
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It is all in the paperwork.

Give a provenance letter with the knife stating :
The customers name ( and contact info if available)
State in which sold/made ( California is a problem state, so check all State codes and regulations if the knife will stay in CA)
Your name and contact information
The source of the ivory, age, date purchased, etc. - whatever you know.
State that the ivory was legally imported prior to 1990 and conforms with all CITES, Federal and State regulations. ( even better if pre-1976)
Sign and date the letter.

If you have purchase paperwork, attach a copy of it to your provenance sheet.
Photographs of the original tusk and pieces being cut off are really good to add.

Many folks say, I didn't get any provenance with the ivory, and that can be a problem. Just a hand written receipt from a deceased person's grandson, or statement from an auctioneer saying the ivory was brought back from Africa in the 1930 ( or at least stating before 1976) and has been in the family ever since; was a hunting trophy of your Uncle's, who died in 1065;etc. (whatever the situation was)..... will be enough to prove your intent. Having any paperwork usually ends and questioning. Having no paperwork just creates questions.
 
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Thanks Stacy. That makes a lot of sense. I will collect and build provenance throughout the project.
 
Call me paranoid.

My gut instinct is to not touch anything resembling "fossil" or "ivory" with a ten-foot pole until this legal stuff clears up. Which may or may not happen.... if I were a gambling man, I'd bet on "not".

You may think I'm being overly-cautious... but some years ago one of the finest, oldest and largest manufacturers of high-end guitars in America (Gibson) found themselves in a HEAP of trouble over "provenance" of "exotic woods". "Proving" the paperwork is in order is not nearly as simple as it might seem. As I recall, they got most of their stock back eventually, but the interruption of business, legal costs, and so forth was extremely costly and time-consuming. Gibson is a multi-million-dollar company with powerful resources, and they were seriously spooked... That's the kind of thing that could completely shut-down a smaller shop for good.

What's so great about ivory or dinosaur tusk, anyway? Is one knife job worth risking your freedom or a boatload of hassle and costs, on the off-chance that some over-zealous nitwit gets wind of you using "banned" material? Can you really prove where it came from? Do you want to be a test-case or a notch in the belt of some goof trying to make a name for him/herself? (And believe you me, "pre-ban" definitely shows up on their radar... believe it or not, their are people with nothing better to do than internet-search these terms... and ShopTalk pops right up)

Meanwhile, I would advise visiting the resources provided by the American Knife & Tool Institute and KnifeRights to keep track of exactly what's legal, rather than rely on any hearsay. Even then, there's some grey area and to a certain extent, you're still on your own if someone comes after you.

I also very strongly recommend joining both those organizations. They're working hard to stick up for us, and clarify/strike down wacky laws.
 
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Good point about supporting the folks who are opposing these ridiculous bans.

As to the Gibson example, IIRC they were not faultless, and voluntarily paid the fines and penalties in order to stay in business ... as well as forfeiting a lot of wood. The biggest difference is in your first statement in that reference - they are the oldest and largest manufacturer of high end guitars.....
These aren't folks who should be saying, "Well, we thought it was OK to try and send illegal wood to Mexico and then import it as Mexican wood." or to say, "we didn't know it wasn't XYZ wood, we thought it was ABC wood."

I totally understand people who are full time makers being very nervous about ivory and fossils, but following the rules and keeping the papers up to date will take care of 99% of problems before they happen. If I lived in CA or NY I doubt I would use any ivory regardless of paperwork.

You are correct that ivory and fossil materials are no longer necessary to make a knife special, and that the buying public no longer cares about it the way they used to.
There are high end woods and composites that make ivory rather plain looking.


When I run out of ivory in a few decades, I probably won't buy any more ( just kidding....well mostly kidding).
 
I would say California Penal Code 6530 would make this a very bad business move for you.

California Penal Code section 653o makes it illegal “to possess with intent to sell, or to sell within the state, the dead body, or any part or product thereof, of any polar bear, leopard, ocelot, tiger, cheetah, jaguar, sable antelope, wolf (Canis lupus), zebra, whale, cobra, python, sea turtle, colobus monkey, kangaroo, vicuna, sea otter, free-roaming feral horse, dolphin or porpoise (Delphinidae), Spanish lynx, or elephant.”
 
So in this particular case, the pre ban ivory is already owned by the person commissioning the knife. I will simply be taking possession of the pre ban ivory long enough to make the knife. I do not intend to sell the ivory to him only use it as materials in the commissioned knife. It is also my understanding that the ivory and subsequent knife will remain in California. I would like to think the commissioner would sign a document stating that he is the owner of the pre ban ivory and that it is not part of the financial transaction. I appreciate the input so far from you guys.
 
JeridJohnson said:
...I do not intend to sell the ivory to him only use it as materials in the commissioned knife. It is also my understanding that the ivory and subsequent knife will remain in California. I would like to think the commissioner would sign a document stating that he is the owner of the pre ban ivory and that it is not part of the financial transaction....
Click to expand...

With all due respect, you are pretending to use "lawyer-speak" without being a lawyer, that is almost always a recipe for disaster. Good luck! ;)
 
Are you aware that the Wildlife cops have used entrapment before, and it sticks in court.

I am not a lawyer and legalese escapes me. I would not do it but for the closest of friends and with the signed papers stating they are responsible for the ivory, owner, importer, heir, and/or acquirer.


Edit to add;

The second reason I wouldn't do it, is I have little experience working with ivory of the different types. Even a dead animal is not to be wasted. I wouldn't want to mess it up, it rare material
 
Very aware and definitely don't want to break the law which is why I'm researching this.. I also don't want to completely dismiss the opportunity if I can operate within the guidelines of the law.
 
I discussed with my local game warden and he directed me to the US Fish and Wildlife service I will be discussing with them in more detail next week.
 
Spoke with a gentleman at the US Fish and Wildlife Service in Torrance, CA. He confirmed that I am OK to take possession of the ivory and use it in the construction of the knife handle and return it to the owner. Although not required, he thought keeping documentation (as Stacy outlined) of the owner, pieces used, and pieces returned was a good idea. If the knife was to ever be sold out of state or internationally the owner would need to follow all federal and state laws which I'm not going to go into here :-) More information here: http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html

Cheers,
Jerid
 
And with that said... Let the build begin!!
huelerproject.jpg
 
That ivory is cut wrong for a knife handle. Cross-grain will split in a heartbeat.
The tusk should be cut lengthwise.
 
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