preferred steel type?

Justin Schmidt

Justin Schmidt

Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
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ok so as a knife maker do you ever feel as if you are obligated to use stainless steel knives simply for better corrosion resistance? it seems to be the general consensus that carbon steels are "better" than stainless due to the ruggedness of the composition. but as I'm exploring different steels I would like to use carbon steels especially 52100. but I'll be living in central Florida in about a week, due to the high humidity I feel like I have to use stainless. the types of knives I will be making are EDC and outdoor knives. thank you in advance.
 
I have recently become a huge fan of carbon steels! I live in the pacific NW in an area that rains 60-80% of the year, so I pick my knife/steel for my daily jobs. I live on a farm so it's mostly outdoor tasks.
I have heard from people that AEB-L and Z-Finit act a lot like 52100. I plan to try at least AEB-L very soon. I hear that the HT on it has to be just right for it to perform as you would want. Z-Finit would be great for the outdoor knives because of the extra corrosion resistance. I would like to try that steel as well! Sounds interesting.
Not a pro though, so hopfully others will weigh in.
 
I've never felt obligated to use stainless steels.

I started in Florida and learned that if a carbon blade is wiped off and dry it wont rust.
 
I have yet to make anything out of stainless.
High carbon takes such a sharp keen edge and is so easy to sharpen. That's most desirable I think
 
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I have never experienced issues with corrosion unless the knife was neglected.
 
Don , somehow many never learned simple basic things to take care of your tools !!
I'm old enough to have gone through the whole thing - simple carbon steel , alloy steels, early crappy stainless and the super steels of today.Each has it's purpose . As a little kid , wood carving ,I wished for a steel that didn't need such frequent sharpening. Actually they were there but sources were hard to find. 52100 ,W1, W2 and others have been with us for 50 + years.
Now as a metallurgist I might buy a steel just to test a new one ! Big choice out there start simple learn as you go !
 
Gonna be a bit of a rant here, but for the OP at least: hear me out.

I'm no metallurgist by no means, so Mete by all means correct me on anything you see here that is perpetuated myth, but from what I have read and my experience using these steels is the fine carbide steels from sandvik like 12c27, 13c26 etc and the like minded AEB-L as well are very similar to fine grained carbon steels and act very similar in use... but they are stainless. Here's the rub: A lot of people turn up their nose at some steels (stainless in particular) that aren't the latest and greatest "super steels" or are old and immediately dismiss them as inferior, which is ridiculous. first off... inferior to what? depending on the intended purpose for a particular knife, they might be the exact perfect steel... CPM S90V will out cut 12C27 by a large margin, but 12c27 will take a lot more abuse and be way easier to resharpen with basic tools in the field, so for this reason I choose it for my hard use knives for the guys I sell to most often. I make a lot of knives out of 12C27 for this very reason as I sell mostly to military guys who beat on their knives a bit and don't necessarily take that good of care of them, so I want a knife that can A: take some abuse, B: hold a decent edge, and C: be easily resharpened in the field and yes... at least be resistant to rust since I don't know where that knife will end up. I point out 12C27 in particular as you mentioned 52100 and since 12C27 has gotten a fairly bad rap over the years as an "inferior steel" meanwhile people marvel at steels like 52100 and are absolutely convinced 52100 is an incredible steel because of what they have heard from one maker or another... not saying it isn't a great steel, as it certainly is more than capable, but is it that much better or again a perpetuated myth by people pushing a particular agenda? In testing, Verhoeven "measured the edge holding of 12C27 vs 52100 and found as expected that 12C27 was superior" (quoted from another post) now that being the case, if 52100 is at least very good... how can 12c27 not be considered at least pretty good and a decent trade off if stainless is required over carbon?
 
thanks for the reply guys. at the end of the day the customer is buying a tool, and you must maintain it like every other tool. I've been hearing some good things with AEB-L as well. it is basically the same steel that the Moran knives use I can't remember the name it's 13xxxx. I'll just have to try both and figure out what I like more.
 
valknut said:
thanks for the reply guys. at the end of the day the customer is buying a tool, and you must maintain it like every other tool. I've been hearing some good things with AEB-L as well. it is basically the same steel that the Moran knives use I can't remember the name it's 13xxxx. I'll just have to try both and figure out what I like more.
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I believe it's 13c26 you are thinking of.. and most mora's use 12c27 as well I believe and again people who love moras have nothing but great things to say. the two are fairly close in composition... better edge retention in 13c and better toughness in 12c. I don't think I could tell them apart in daily use.
 
yes that's the one! sorry had a brain fart. and even the bushcraft crowd swares by their moras. AEB-L is getting some good reviews and it's cheap .
 
I think about Fisk's museum philosophy. Old knives end up in museums, and one of them may have my name on it. I'd rather have a nice looking knife with my name on it in a museum, personally. If I depend on a customer to (do their job and) keep that knife clean, I may be disappointed with a rusty piece of junk in a few hundred years. Or, I can use stainless and it will stand a much better chance of looking close to what it did when it left my shop.

That said, I make mostly stainless when I'm making on spec, and take orders for stainless or carbon.
 
Jason Fry said:
I think about Fisk's museum philosophy. Old knives end up in museums, and one of them may have my name on it. I'd rather have a nice looking knife with my name on it in a museum, personally. If I depend on a customer to (do their job and) keep that knife clean, I may be disappointed with a rusty piece of junk in a few hundred years. Or, I can use stainless and it will stand a much better chance of looking close to what it did when it left my shop.

That said, I make mostly stainless when I'm making on spec, and take orders for stainless or carbon.
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that's a good point jason. do you mind if I ask which stainless you like to work with the most?
 
I grind CPM 154, ATS-34, CM 154, and 440C for my sporting knives. My customers want stainless and I like it as well. Most of my buyers want a knife that will field dress a few deer per season and be rust free. I still like to do high polish on most of my hunting knives and water rolls off them like they were waxed. They slice cleanly as well. I will not debate the advantages of carbon steel forged blades because that is a subject that would take years and is well beyond my knowledge of metallurgy. I admire the forged knives the forum members make every day and I own a few. Because I make knives by stock reduction I buy steels that are readily available and I have them heat treated by Paul Farner at Paul Bos Heat Treat in Idaho. My insurance will not cover me if I use a kiln or forge. To "each his own" but I like stainless steel and that's why I make the knives I do. Larry



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LARRYZ10 said:
I grind CPM 154, ATS-34, CM 154, and 440C for my sporting knives. My customers want stainless and I like it as well. Most of my buyers want a knife that will field dress a few deer per season and be rust free. I still like to do high polish on most of my hunting knives and water rolls off them like they were waxed. They slice cleanly as well. I will not debate the advantages of carbon steel forged blades because that is a subject that would take years and is well beyond my knowledge of metallurgy. I admire the forged knives the forum members make every day and I own a few. Because I make knives by stock reduction I buy steels that are readily available and I have them heat treated by Paul Farner at Paul Bos Heat Treat in Idaho. My insurance will not cover me if I use a kiln or forge. To "each his own" but I like stainless steel and that's why I make the knives I do. Larry



KStRZ9gt.jpg
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and after looking at your website you craft beautiful knives. I'm also doing the stock removal and plan to use Peter's for heat treat with the cryogenic temper to help tighten up the grain structure of the metal.
I guess I just have a soft spot for stainless steels. but we shall see how each goes. my first stainless will probably be AEB-L due to its price.
 
Valknut, Thanks for the compliment. A lot of really good knife makers are using AEB-L and rave about it. I have not used it only because I could not find it in a thickness I like (5/32"). I will look forward to some of your photos soon. Larry
 
Primarily my customers want a knife that keeps an edge and requires no maintenance. Almost all of my customers are hunters/farmers/business owners or a combo of all three. They just aren't going to take care of their knives (or their guns, which I also work on) like most here would. I find my attention to taking care of blades to be an anomaly among my customers. These aren't lazy people, just the opposite, they are all very busy and that may be why they have the attitude towards maintenance that they do. None of them have asked for a blade with steel that is easy to sharpen in the field. They want a knife that starts very sharp, and retains a working edge for as long as possible. All of them have jumped at my offer for free touch ups.

So to answer your question, I use stainless exclusively. I am willing to use cs if asked, however out of the few I've sold and 30+ that I owe people, none have requested cs.

I like CPM154 the best so far. It is both tough and durable. Takes a razor edge if done right and is fairly easy to surface finish to whatever is desired. The final hardness I aim for is 60-61 RC and so far that has made the edges tough, yet not so brittle that chipping is an issue.
 
Justice4all said:
Primarily my customers want a knife that keeps an edge and requires no maintenance. Almost all of my customers are hunters/farmers/business owners or a combo of all three. They just aren't going to take care of their knives (or their guns, which I also work on) like most here would. I find my attention to taking care of blades to be an anomaly among my customers. These aren't lazy people, just the opposite, they are all very busy and that may be why they have the attitude towards maintenance that they do. None of them have asked for a blade with steel that is easy to sharpen in the field. They want a knife that starts very sharp, and retains a working edge for as long as possible. All of them have jumped at my offer for free touch ups.

So to answer your question, I use stainless exclusively. I am willing to use cs if asked, however out of the few I've sold and 30+ that I owe people, none have requested cs.

I like CPM154 the best so far. It is both tough and durable. Takes a razor edge if done right and is fairly easy to surface finish to whatever is desired. The final hardness I aim for is 60-61 RC and so far that has made the edges tough, yet not so brittle that chipping is an issue.
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thank you very much for your insight. that makes alot of sense the way you put that. I guess that's what I was trying to describe just couldn't quite get it out.
I'll probably start with AEB-L then try some CPM 154. I love CPM 154 it's just expensive. but you get what you pay for.
 
AEB-L is a fine steel. If you want even more corrosion resistance look at 14C28N. Heat treatment is key though and plate quench as these steels like to warp. Post heat treat grinding is most popular on these steels locally here in South Africa from what I have seen.

http://smt.sandvik.com/en/products/...fe-steel/sandvik-knife-steels/sandvik-14c28n/

Play around on Sandvik's site. They have good resources on hardening their steels and knife steel knowledge.

Here is test I did on a custom some time ago in 14C28N on some cardboard for edge retention.

[video=youtube;FSqzg3T2Kx8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSqzg3T2Kx8[/video]

On a side note. I love carbon and stainless and enjoy all in my collection and use.

Ps. I am very fond of Nitrobe-77 (as if 52100 and H-1 had a love child), but very rare stainless, costly and requires absolute precision in the heat treatment.
 
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