Previews, marketing and lots of drama

[Fiddleback]

Guys, I have had to read a small novel of drama this weekend when a knife someone saw in a sneak peek didn't get put up on Fridays thread. The knife in question was sold back of house before the thread went up. The customer, a valued one that I happen to like a lot, was absolutely pissed off that that particular knife didn't make a Friday thread. I have been told that I run an unfair business and that there is some perceived underhandedness going on. I can assure you that my favorite thing about the knife business is that it is honest work, for the best group of customers any business has, and that we don't screw anyone over, never have at Fiddleback Forge.

Full Disclosure: We sell knives to support this business and our employees and Ben. We sell them in the Fiddleback Friday posts, through dealers, to locals, and to folks that call in. If someone offers us money to buy a knife, we sell them the knife. We make ~60 knives a week, and we spread the Model Standard through base price knives to the dealers and friday thread as evenly as we can.

Nothing is perfect and I know it can be frustrating to miss out on a pretty knife that looks like it was made for you. I know this from the HI days. This cannot be helped. Each knife we make might appeal to more than one person. We are going to continue to do our best to make beautiful tools that you love. WE are going to continue to post sneak peek threads and pictures of knives we are excited about and proud of. We cannot segregate the batches to make sure that no sneak peeks of knives that won't be in the Friday thread are shown. I will not regulate what my folks post in this way, and we couidn't manage a system like this anyway.

It is not wrong for us to sell a knife if a person walks through the door and buys it (Maybe 4 or 5 knives a month sell this way). Neither is it wrong for us to sell a knife to an old fella that calls in such as my buddy from Alabama that calls and tells me stories of WWII. Or someone from Instagram that doesn't forum that see's a knife and calls in. (This has happened two times.)

I went against my own instincts and restricted the Friday purchases to three knives. But I think it is rediculous for me to continue to limit my sales by excluding groups of folks from groups of knives. In addition, we do not have a spare minute to manage the segregation. We are busy making 60 knives, preparing for the show, making the prod bushfingers and moving the shop.

Please bear with us and remember how much we value each of you. YOU made this business work. You have made this business grow, and provide 9 jobs. You are the ones who have helped Ben. We are reverent in the face of this, and pray for your continued support.

 

[SA Condor]

I almost never get the knife I'm gunning for in the Friday threads either!! BUT, that's the way of sharking threads and as part of this community I accept that. I stand behind you and your business model even though I don't get every knife I ever wanted! I don't believe anybody has ever gotten every knife they had their minds set on. That's part of the fun here and a great way to meet new people as you track down that special knife!

Thanks for your (and the crew too) hard work and your excellent customer service. You make us feel like people and not some means to an end.

 

[NUTRAMAC]

"Please bear with us and remember how much we value each of you. YOU made this business work. You have made this business grow, and provide 9 jobs. You are the ones who have helped Ben. We are reverent in the face of this, and pray for your continued support."

Andy my close friends and family are very proud of the fact we collect and use your knives!
We are also proud of the fact we support a local craftsman selling an American made product !

I pray for a continual blessings for your and your crew.

 

[RRaconteur]

Andy,

Hang in there. It's got to be difficult to keep perspective sometimes, especially when others are losing perspective. You should consider it a compliment that your tools evoke such passion! 👍 I can't imagine the complexities of running your business, and whether it not I would do it differently is irrelevant. Because it is YOUR business--you are investing the capital and you are taking the risks. What I have seen, however, is a person of integrity doing his best. And that's a big part of why I am proud of my FF knives.


Michael

 

[FeralGentleman]

You are running your business as you see fit and the results continue week after to week to speak for themselves. You may not know it buy you have me hooked, and it's not because I "need" another knife. Your product, the culture you built around your name, how you carry yourself online, and the things you have done for the knife community and your private community (Ben) speaks volume.

Somewhere down the line you are bound to piss someone off without even trying. You can't please everyone. If this was not Bladeforums I'd have more pointed things to say to the crybaby(ies)

 

[MajorD]

Andy
I can't even fathom somebody getting pissed over something so trivial. In all of years in your forum I have never seen the rule where you must sell your knives only on Friday. That makes zero sense to me. It's about customer service first and foremost and you have always put your customers first. Unfortunately you will never please everybody.

I can say first hand that buying a knife directly from Andy is a really cool opportunity. Last year, on a trip to South Carolina, My wife and I detoured for a day, got a hotel just to visit Andy's Shop. We didn't arrive until the end of the day. Andy was gracious enough to take the time to sit and share a beer and talk for a few minutes. I bought a knife that day and it was so cool for me. I would have been disappointed if I made that trip and not been able to buy a knife directly.

I think if somebody takes the time and spends the money it takes to make a visit then you have every right as the owner of your company to treat that customer as you see fit.

I applaud your efforts!

 

[morestag]

Speaking only for myself, I truly appreciate everything you and all the guys at Fiddleback do. I know there is a great deal of work that goes into the business beyond just making knives. Having to deal with whiners and crybabies is taking time away from more Important things.

 

[solid4ever]

I've always been incredibly impressed with Andy's ability to keep demand at a fever pitch. He's a singular knife maker....but he's also exceptional at what I presume is a TOUGH business of successful, full-time knife making. I had always assumed this was the guiding reason behind the fiddleback friday-style of selling...and the other small rules like 3 knife limit, or no other sales opportunities other than FF and dealers (or shows). That it was Andy's business acumen on how to keep demand at such a high level.

It's interesting to read this then...because it kind of flies against what I assumed he was doing.

I fully support Andy selling his wares in whatever manner he wishes. He could request a video of us doing a Bob Fosse musical number before buying a knife and I'd be buying tap shoes right now. But I think he's going to start getting alot more phone calls friday morning after the pictures go up...if that's indeed an acceptable way to buy. I think he'll get alot more people "stopping in" to the shop ....if that's an acceptable way to buy. Maybe that's fine for him...but I would assume that would slow down production SOMEWHAT. And would reduce interest in fiddleback friday...

I think removing the 3-knife limit is REALLY interesting, because I assumed that was a critical component of his long term business interests. For two reasons:

1: I think it damages potential long term interest in the product by letting the prime sharks completely sate their short-term desires. There are guys that buy 3 knives a week, every week. That's $52 grand in knives a year. That's a customer that SUPPORTS the business. Long term success of a small business is made or broken on finding customers like that: Loyal, high volume purchasers. Maybe they can absolutely spend $2 grand a week (with the restrictions removed), and maybe their interest will stay high by buying 6 a week instead of 3....but by stopping them, even slightly, every week...they buy more NEXT week. because they didn't fill their belly. And I would never want them to (if I were selling something). I think there's nothing more dangerous to long term success than changing something that allows the "50 grand a year" guys to actually feel "content". If I ran a business I'd want them always to feel juuuuuussssssst a bit 'unfulfilled'. Releasing 6 new models but only letting guys buy 3? That was genius. That's GENIUS. That's going to ensure 2 months of buying from a guy who would have stopped after 1 week.

2: By letting singular guys buy more knives, you lose out on the new "50 grand a year" guys. You know when people start buying 3 knives a week, every week? After they buy their first. I don't know too many guys on here with 'just one'. spreading them around 'seeds' the long term market. I wonder how many of these 50 grand guys would be here if they never got their first? Or if they got their first 6 months later?


Maybe I'm wrong. And I'm not here to ruffle feathers. But I enjoy Andy's posts about his business. It's the second part of Fiddleback Forge (after the knives) that keeps me coming back here. It's a master-class in sales and running your own business.

Your thoughts? I'd love to discuss this...

 

[morestag]

It is my understanding that you are limited to 3 knives per POST on Fridays. You can make more than one post and buy as many as you can before someone else sharks them.

 

[solid4ever]

It is my understanding that you are limited to 3 knives per POST on Fridays. You can make more than one post and buy as many as you can before someone else sharks them.

I did NOT know that

 

[Fiddleback]

I'm leaving the 3 knife limit on Fiddleback Friday sales. There was too much angst over this with a big fraction of the customer base to change it back.

We will not be taking hundreds of calls around here. If it was to get where the calls are depleting the FF thread knives I would forbid taking calls on Friday. As it is we get around 2 calls a week, and generally they aren't after a specific knife, but looking for a model. Thats what was so depressing about this weekend. You're not talking about 10 knives in any week EVER. Its more like 10 a month.

 

[Tim the Wizard]

I am the one that offered suggestions privately to Andy about an issue that was important to me as a customer, as well as another issue that is not addressed in this thread.

As I told Andy, Ken, and Allen, I am a discerning customer and I care about their business. I want to see them grow and to do so I give them money for what we would all agree is a very beautiful and functional product. I post reviews of their products online. I recommend them to friends and family.

So when I perceived there to be an issue I did what I thought was right, I communicated the issue privately to them. I clearly stated that this was not about me being able to buy a knife, but rather that it was about a perception that I thought was being created with other customers. I also clearly stated that I wanted to help them eliminate any issues with the way their product was being marketed that made customers like me feel like a second tier of customer. I did not make any demands.

In another context, and with other businesses, I simply would have not tried to help. I would not have let them know why they lost my business in the long run. I did not expect any public disclosure of my private concern. I am completely taken aback that it would be aired in a public forum. It was never about me getting a certain knife, but I will admit that the unavailability of certain knives made me concerned that the wrong message was being sent.

The Fiddleback Forge website states that: For those that are interested in purchasing our knives, please join us every Friday for Fiddleback Friday™ on our dedicated forum channel on the Blade Forums.

I simply thought that meant knives were available on Fridays. As Andy has clarified, any knife is available to anyone at any time, first come first serve. I am completely fine with that.

 

[Fiddleback]

Each post started with denying that you were trying to tell us how to run our business. Then came giant graphs and big chunks of text telling us how to run our business. Then came threats to walk away as a customer if we didn't do it your way.

None of my customers money is second rate. I value each of you, and this includes Vayu.

 

[Tim the Wizard]

Each post started with denying that you were trying to tell us how to run our business.

When I stated before each post that I did not want to tell you how to run your business, what I meant was that I did not want to tell you how to run your business. Rather, that I would like to make suggestions about a perception that I had as a customer, in order to help you keep my business and that of my friends and family.

Then came giant graphs and big chunks of text telling us how to run our business.

Yes, it is true I made a chart that I thought would help you visualize the issue better, as well as a potential solution. Please note the solution was not "sell me this knife". The suggestion was "here is how I think it could be better, but it is up to you". Privately, you said thank you for your time and energy.

Then came threats to walk away as a customer if we didn't do it your way.

That is my right as a customer and certainly one that I have considered, although I felt we had come to resolution prior to this thread.

None of my customers money is second rate. I value each of you, and this includes Vayu.

If this was true I would have appreciated it if you did not make my private suggestions into a public affair, or accuse me of starting drama by offering what I perceived to be suggestions that would improve my experience as a customer to you and lead to more business.

 

[Tim the Wizard]

Folks, the point is that I recognize that Andy is trying to scale his business and grow. So I offered some suggestions to let him know how I felt as a customer and how he could keep my business over the next 50 years. Isn't that what you do for a business you care about? I have never had anything except positive things to say about Fiddleback Forge and I have been outspoken publicly about their knives. I have spent several thousand dollars with Andy and the crew. I support Super Ben. I have sold knives for him.

I offered some suggestions to him over a weekend, including a graph, because I had misconceptions about the way we could buy knives. I thought it was a worthy investment of my time and effort and that it could help Fiddleback Forge. I send multiple personal messages because I think fast and like to respond in what I consider real time over the forum. I am sorry that you all had to read my concerns as a customer and that you felt it was trivial enough to lambast publicly. I am available to talk privately over PM, email, or phone, to anyone. I did not start these threads.

I have been told that I run an unfair business and that there is some perceived underhandedness going on.

What I told you specifically was that I understood the difference between a perception and a reality. My intent was to help you understand why I had that perception and what strategies I thought might eliminate that perception among your customers. In no way do I wish to communicate that you are doing something wrong. Rather, I wanted to let you know that the perception was there, by design or by accident, and that it could hurt a business in the long run. Just like with our conversation about sharpness... Benchmade lost market share to Spyderco because dull knives were sent out. Businesses have to work with market trends and customer perceptions every day. It is non standard to air them out on a public forum and I won't participate in it beyond these two posts, which I am more than happy to remove at your request.

 

[Fiddleback]

Again, the three parts together add up to telling us how to run our business.

Folks, we are talking about 20 PM's to me. In addition to these a bunch to Ken and Allen.

The thing with reporting bonafide to Paypal without trying to handle it privately is serious. It has shut down his paypal and effectively his business.

 

[Tim the Wizard]

Folks, we are talking about 20 PM's to me. In addition to these a bunch to Ken and Allen.

Is the issue volume, or intent? My intent is as it was when I started, to help you understand what I perceived as a negative experience in a private way and to help you understand why I thought the issue was important, or at least why it was important to me. At any point I would have happily talked to you over the phone, and that includes now.

The thing with reporting bonafide to Paypal without trying to handle it privately is serious. It has shut down his paypal and effectively his business.

A closed and resolved case has shut down his business? Just let me know who to call at PayPal and I will clarify the issue, or Bonafide can let me know. I will make any effort he needs to open up the account immediately if that is true. It is also entirely unrelated to this thread.

 

[Joe Duder]

.....

 

[xxwjtxx]

Close this baby down.

Wise words Duder, +1

 

[FeralGentleman]

Part of the problem is with your handling of Payments to a forum Sheath maker (refer to the Feedback thread). Paypal encourages direct communications between buyer/seller in the case of any problems with a purchase. The flow goes like the following: direct communication between buyer/seller ----> Paypal dispute process ----> Paypal claim process.

As someone who is active on the forums and seemingly with PMs, Vayu, the problem is the matter should have gone directly to the vendor via pm, email or phone. This is what Paypal suggests before filing a dispute:

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/seller-dispute-resolution

n most cases, the easiest way to settle a dispute is for buyers and sellers to work together to figure out what happened and to settle their differences. This can help prevent holds from being placed on your account, and can go a long way in keeping your customers happy.

When buyers and sellers can’t come to an agreement, PayPal Dispute Resolution can help them arrive at a solution both sides can agree on. This resolution system makes it easy for buyers and sellers to track, manage, and resolve disputes. It's a convenient process that helps to bring about the right solutions in a timely manner.

Once a buyer initiates the dispute resolution process, PayPal holds the money for that transaction until the dispute is resolved. If the dispute cannot be resolved between the Buyer and Seller, the disputed can be escalated to a Claim and PayPal will determine the outcome of the issue.

Whining and wasting FB resources about knives you feel entitled to is not worth commenting on much.

Looking forward to the next sneak peak