Proactively seeking the forum consensus

[madcap_magician]

I just had a deal go a bit sideways, and I thought I'd post it without mentioning who the other member was to see if the forumites as a collective think I should have done something different. It's possible to figure out who the other member was, as they did a lot of posting in the thread instead of DMing, but I am not trying to call this person out in any way and don't believe they've done anything wrong, just seeking the consensus view on who, if anyone, is wrong here.

1. I have a custom knife for sale with a handle made from artifact walrus ivory.
2. I live in the United States.
3. A buyer approached me who lives outside the US and offered to assume all risk in shipping and customs. Normally this is what I insist on for international or mail forwarding situations.
4. I agreed and the buyer says he paid.
5. My PayPal does not indicate I've received any funds.
6. It was late at night in the buyer's time zone and he said in the DM chain that he has sometimes sent to the wrong address with PayPal in the past.
7. Another buyer messaged me with interest in buying, and I told him he was in line.
8. That buyer then asked if I was aware of export requirements for ivory. (I was not)
9. I spent some time going down the rabbit hole on Google with CITES and Fish and Wildlife and it looks like I would need to apply for an export permit for $75 and then also provide documented proof that the ivory was in fact >100 years old via radiocarbon testing, photographic evidence, chain of custody proof, etc. I don't have this information and for the price of the knife it seems prohibitive to try and obtain it.
10. With this in mind, I contacted the first buyer and said in light of the federal compliance risk for exporting ivory, I was going to back out, and that I did not consider a deal to have been done because I have not received funds, but if he could provide the PayPal documentation showing that he did in fact send the funds to my correct e-mail/PayPal account, I would immediately refund if the money showed up and/or help him resolve with PayPal if it does not.

Am I wrong to back out of a sale given:
1. Uncertain federal regulation for exporting ivory, and
2. A claim from the buyer that they paid, but no funds received

Thanks for your input!

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I would say at this juncture it is fine to back out of the sale.

I do know what thread you are talking about and am now kicking myself because I was going to message you about CITES to see if you were aware and I forgot to.

 

[Dadpool]

Taking everything you said at face value, I don't think you did anything wrong in backing out. No one was harmed by the non-transaction, and if the buyer did in fact send funds you confirmed you'd make them whole.

 

[DennisM]

No money received = no sale.

Even if funds were received and you later found out about the regulations and permits - I would have promptly contacted the buyer to inform him of the logistics involved and that it was not worth the risk for you or he and refunded the $$$.

With all the import tariffs stuff up in the air - you may have had to claim fee to cover those too. It sucks that it has cause issues dealing with our foreign members - neither our or their faults.

 

[madcap_magician]

Taking everything you said at face value, I don't think you did anything wrong in backing out. No one was harmed by the non-transaction, and if the buyer did in fact send funds you confirmed you'd make them whole.

I can document everything, including my recent PayPal activity, but I don't want to cast aspersions on the other person, although he was very butthurt and mildly abusive by DM about this, including stating that he was going to 'talk to all his friends on BF' about me, so I figured it might be nice to have my side up. He was upset that he stayed up late his time to communicate about this, although I have no problem if a guy wants to finish a deal the next day. He's more than welcome to start another thread or post any evidence that he believes shows I've wronged him somehow.

I have my own suspicions about the payment being sent to the wrong address because he said even before paying that he has done that before and implied that it wasn't a one-off thing, and also he has been very reluctant to show me a screenshot of his payment confirmation showing me as recipient. At this point, though, he has told me that he was able to cancel the transaction, so fortunately he's not out any money.

 

[Blues]

You are within your rights to back out based upon the information which came to your attention after the fact. (I have not verified whether the information is accurate, personally.)

If the purchaser cannot appreciate the potential risk and / expense, (or that it might be seized by Customs on their end), then they are being unreasonable in my view, given the circumstances.

There will be no repercussions for you on this site based upon this information. And if you receive abuse, please report it.

 

[madcap_magician]

UPDATE: Member DM'd me and apologized for his overreaction. He did get his PayPal payment cancelled, so no one is out any money or knives, and nobody's in federal court. Issue resolved.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

This is a problem with international sales. Joe seller is not going to know all rules and regulations around the world.
Even if money had changed hands(which it didn't), I still would feel it ok to pull out and refund. I would apoligize in such a case, but can't be expected to jump through all those unexpected hoops on a simple sale.

 

[kreole]

It's nice y'all managed to deescalate things yourselves. From my own experience and thick headedness, especially online when there's no body language to read and text can come off other than it was meant, I know it's easy to get angry (misunderstanding sometimes, sometimes not), then just keep pressing the issue. "Internet road rage"

Cudos to both sides for working it out.

 

[Dadpool]

Agreed, good job all around sorting this out.

 

[Casinostocks]

My 2Cs for what it's worth:

I have never transacted with the seller but I know of him quite well from the CPK sub. The seller seems to be painstakingly detailed and a very straitlaced type. He seems to have a solid reputation and a pretty fine taste in knives. From all that I can gather, a pretty good and responsible member of this community who has been around a decade or so longer than me!

I also happen to know the buyer based on 4 separate transactions, all on custom fixed and folders. He likes a good deal and likes the art of negotiations which I do not hold against. His money has always been good and all of our transactions completed smoothly. I always did my part and he always held up his end, very old fashioned and very traditional kind of person akin to my own boomer generation if I had to guess! He also seems to have been around several years longer than me.

The bottomline is this: I have communicated with the latter many times and we shared some stories, He is the kind who I'd love to go to pub with, listen to his stories when he's a bit lubricated and then LMAO, mostly because he uses slangs which he will have to explain to you in his Aussie accent. It is my opinion that if these two keep communicating, they will just make matters worse for each other as they have completely different dispositions

I just interjected because I don't want people to thin k that our Aussie member is some sort of troublemaker. AFAIAC, his money has been good and if you deliver to him what you have promised, he will be very grateful. I have given him great deals that no one else stepped up in here despite having offered some great customs at very good prices

 

[madcap_magician]

My 2Cs for what it's worth:

I have never transacted with the seller but I know of him quite well from the CPK sub. The seller seems to be painstakingly detailed and a very straitlaced type. He seems to have a solid reputation and a pretty fine taste in knives. From all that I can gather, a pretty good and responsible member of this community who has been around a decade or so longer than me!

I also happen to know the buyer based on 4 separate transactions, all on custom fixed and folders. He likes a good deal and likes the art of negotiations which I do not hold against. His money has always been good and all of our transactions completed smoothly. I always did my part and he always held up his end, very old fashioned and very traditional kind of person akin to my own boomer generation if I had to guess! He also seems to have been around several years longer than me.

The bottomline is this: I have communicated with the latter many times and we shared some stories, He is the kind who I'd love to go to pub with, listen to his stories when he's a bit lubricated and then LMAO, mostly because he uses slangs which he will have to explain to you in his Aussie accent. It is my opinion that if these two keep communicating, they will just make matters worse for each other as they have completely different dispositions

I just interjected because I don't want people to thin k that our Aussie member is some sort of troublemaker. AFAIAC, his money has been good and if you deliver to him what you have promised, he will be very grateful. I have given him great deals that no one else stepped up in here despite having offered some great customs at very good prices

No, I agree, I don't think he was out to make trouble, either. I think he was just trying to do a deal in the middle of the night his time and got cranky. Neither of us have any hard feelings and we resolved by DM. I learned another important fine point about doing business with overseas buyers (everything in my sales post terms was mostly learned as a result of overseas buyers), and nobody is out anything.

 

[Blues]

I can understand his disappointment if the facts upon which his argument about the "ivory" not being prohibited for export are true, as it appears that he believes the interpretation of the law presented was intentionally misleading to allow the seller an out.

But since no funds were actually exchanged, there is nothing to be done on a forum level and members can make up their own minds as to whether or not anyone was wronged.

 

[madcap_magician]

I can understand his disappointment if the facts upon which his argument about the "ivory" not being prohibited for export are true, as it appears that he believes the interpretation of the law presented was intentionally misleading to allow the seller an out.

But since no funds were actually exchanged, there is nothing to be done on a forum level and members can make up their own minds as to whether or not anyone was wronged.

This is true, and I understand his frustration. However, I gained nothing by taking the out. I think it's a very apples and oranges thing. Taking an out after you've confirmed a sale because a second buyer offers more money is one thing. Taking an out after you've confirmed a sale because you discover that making the sale may be illegal seems to be a very different kettle of fish. The second buyer may well have been not entirely altruistic in bringing up that information to me, but it seems like a slander sort of thing - truth is a defense even if it makes the object of the statements look bad.

I actually lost money taking the second buyer, as the original buyer offered a generous shipping subsidy above my asking price.

I understand the original buyer's frustration, and the only reason I keep talking about it is because he kept on opening new public accusations after saying privately it was settled.

As this thread responses show, at least one other uninvolved party read the posts in my sales thread and had concerns about export compliance as well. I don't know for sure that it's illegal for me to ship antique walrus ivory items outside of the US, but brief internet research was sufficient to determine that was a legitimate risk. Even very basic Googling indicated that I might need to complete this export permit application, which costs $75.00 and adds an unknown processing time to the transaction, to get a CITES Pre-Convention Certificate for single-use export authorization. I am not definitely claiming that it is illegal for me to sell the original buyer this knife, I am just saying that the regulations are sufficiently complex that I am not confident I could carry out a compliant international sale of this knife, and I think anyone else conscientiously trying to abide by federal regulations without any specific knowledge of them would reasonably conclude the same.

 

[Blues]

The posts shouldn't have been deleted. They should have, by policy, been moved offline to the moderator's only area.

 

[Boru13]

The posts shouldn't have been deleted. They should have, by policy, been moved offline to the moderator's only area.

Just did that and issued a 10 point warning as well.

 

[Blues]

so your all making mistakes even moderators . not a good sign for the general population . i've supported blade forums by over 100 purchases if i'm eventually banned i wont lose sleep .why dont you ban childish comment's like'' Farts rainbows'' drags down ordinary members. some outsider looking in and seeing that what a bunch of morons they must be .

I don't know what your bitch is with the moderators. You may have a legitimate gripe with the seller, but the sale thread is not the place for you to air your grievances. This is the sub-forum for doing so...and you also could have availed yourself of the "report button" if you felt it germane. This is covered within the site rules for the Exchange.

My colleague did ding you with a small warning of 10 points...for what he felt was excessive disregard for the rules, and not taking your grievance to the proper area to air it out.

I am sorry that you didn't get the outcome you sought in this matter, but there is nothing we can do outside of ensuring that you weren't the victim of a financial loss and our only remedy in that case would be to ban the offending member.

We have no other statutory authority over the private transactions of our members inside or outside of the Exchange. And whether something is or isn't a CITES violation is also outside the scope of our jurisdiction.

 

[morton12]

o'k i accept all that . I'm 82 years old and dont know how all this stuff works sub forums ect and i never will . i'm only intersted in buying knives never sold one, only use i have for forum . i dont like committees etc . . what i said about moderators obviouly hit a nerve sorry about that .. i have supported knifemakers if you look at Dog Kuster's, brazilian fixed blade maker , feedback 9 out of 15 feedbacks are mine more to come . same as bogdans in folding knife makers .i must have 15 of his . they are my friends
one thing you can do for me is get madcap magician Mr Samuel Rudolph to delete all my references on his site. i dont want to be associated with him, he said i never sent him money . how would i have his name unless disclosed when i sent him payment through PayPal? paypal caused a delay and i i cancelled it when sam canceled the sale .doesn't much matter now . thanks dave

 

[Blues]

M morton12 , I have moved the conversations between you and the seller (from the sale thread) offline where only moderators can view those posts.

Let me see if there is anything further I can clean up here in this thread.

ETA: I have also moved a number of posts from this thread to the moderator's section so that no conversations between the seller and prospective buyer remain in the public arena.

I think that this will put the matter to rest and we can move on from this without any further acrimony.