Probably a stupid question...

[Amnesiac]

Winners are knives that will hold their value or actually go up in value over time.

Okay, understood.

I'm certainly not interested in tossing away money but I'm also approaching this on a personal level not as an investment. I've collected antique toys for many years. My rule there has always been what does it mean to me- not what could I re-sell this for next year or in five years. That said, much of what I've bought over the last twenty years has appreciated nicely. Some hasn't.

I'm interested in custom knives for the same reason. I appreciate the incredible talent and craftmanship I've been seeing in my research. There's a lot to choose from and some of what I see really speaks to me personally.

 

[Jon Brand]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but keep in mind that there are MANY dealers/purveyors set up with great knives available. You don't have to buy a knife from the maker. Sometimes the second hand knives are a better deal.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Murray,

You collection is just that...your collection.

To point out to someone that they should purchase something that doesn't have at least a chance of holding it's value is irresponsible. People come to you looking for knowledge because you possess years of experience of buying custom knives.

Murray it has been pointed out for years on this forum that people don't care about ROI's. They don't care if custom knives hold their values, etc. I tire of people who say "buy what you like" and then complain when they can't get even close to their money out of a knife. Especially in today's economic climate.

If you want to tell people to not worry about picking winners. You should at least at the same time include a caveat that you don't care if any knife you buy is actually worth the money. As well that if the knife sold for a huge loss...that you could care less. That would at least be fair...for the new buyers. Lets point out both sides of the coin.

Sorry, it was not my intention to hijack the thread.

Amnesiac, enjoy the knife show and your purchases.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Murray:

I had to re-read that a couple of times.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Id be curious to see what the opinion is of those people selling (or trying to sell) their "non-winner" knives at a big loss.

Most collectors do not keep every knife they buy. For many to buy the next knife in their collection they have to sell one. Consistently selling for a loss is not the best way to enhance your collection.

As most of the US Banks and Mortgage lenders how selling at a loss worked out for them.

BTW, I really like Bill Johnson's Chute. Nice to see him showing off his skills.

Amnesiac, I do agree with Murray and Kevin is that there will be plenty of very nice knives on the tables on Saturday.

Be leery of "good deals" on Sunday. A maker that will lower their price on Sunday is telling you that their work is considered overpriced by the majority of the collectors. Also, they have no problem in lowering their prices. This of course resets the "actual price" for the knife.

Imagine you were the collector who paid full price on Saturday only to find out a similar knife that you bought sold for $50 less on Sunday.

Yes, the collector will let every one know he got a "deal" on the knife.

I don't believe we are taking the thread off course as Amnesiac is seeking information to help him in starting his customs collection. Though you have gone beyond answering his original question, he's being exposed to good information that will help him in making decisions.

I agree Les that there are many "over priced" knives at shows. However just because a knife is unsold on Sunday doesn't necessarily mean it's over priced.
There's other reasons for knives going unsold at shows.

A maker may have sold dozens of a particular model at a certain price over many shows only to have that model go unsold at a certain show or shows.
IMO, you can't necessarily value a knife on what it brings or if it sells or not at a single show.

A maker may lower the price on a knife on Sunday where he normally would not just because he needs gas money or whatever. There are deals at knife shows, perhaps just not around every corner.

 

[Murray White]

Les -- I don't recall saying to buy anything that was not worth the money. Knowing what is worth the money is not always so easy to determine. There are many makers that were "worth the money" at one time but because of passage of time and the makers current marketplace standing that same knife that sold new for $300, became worth $1200 might now only be worth $600 or sometimes less than what it was worth when sold by the maker. Now did the purchaser make a mistake and pay too much to the maker or did he just not sell and make a profit when he was still enjoying the knife? Is the owner less happy with the knife today? Does he need $ to pay the rent and can't get the money from his knife sales? Life changes but hopefully the owner enjoyed the knife or knives over the time of ownership. Have I paid too much for any of the knives in my collection? I don't think so. No one knows how much I paid for any knife but me and my wife so I'm not sure how anyone would know if I overpaid. but in the long run, i have not overpaid for any knife just because of the pure joy of having and gaining the pleasure any knife has given me, my wife or my family or friends.

I just want Amnesiac and any other new collector to experience this same joy.

Heck I had great joy when my funds purchases went up nicely and am not experiencing so much joy now. Did I buy wrong? My financial advisor does not think so. Should I sell or have sold? My financial advisor does not think so. Did I sell some and sell at the wrong time? Sure did but I also sold lots to make purchases that I still have and enjoy and whole lot of those are still on display in the form of knives.

 

[RogerP]

I agree Les that there are many "over priced" knives at shows. However just because a knife is unsold on Sunday doesn't necessarily mean it's over priced.
There's other reasons for knives going unsold at shows.

I don't think that Les was referring to the mere fact that the knife is still around on Sunday, but rather the fact that the maker is willing to sell it at a reduced "Sunday price":

...
Be leery of "good deals" on Sunday. A maker that will lower their price on Sunday is telling you that their work is considered overpriced by the majority of the collectors. Also, they have no problem in lowering their prices. This of course resets the "actual price" for the knife....

Otherwise I agree that there are many factors beyond price that can contribute to a particular knife not selling at a show.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

I don't think that Les was referring to the mere fact that the knife is still around on Sunday, but rather the fact that the maker is willing to sell it at a reduced "Sunday price":

Otherwise I agree that there are many factors beyond price that can contribute to a particular knife not selling at a show.

Roger

A maker that will lower their price on Sunday is telling you that their work is considered overpriced by the majority of the collectors. Also, they have no problem in lowering their prices. This of course resets the "actual price" for the knife.

A maker may lower the price on a knife on Sunday where he normally would not just because he needs gas money or whatever.

Roger, as per my point above which you didn't quote, I strongly disagree with Les's statement that a maker is conceding his unsold knives are "over priced' by reducing them on Sunday. He's more likely just willing to take less to help cover his show expenses. Especially if he's had a bad show.
IMO, makers should come to shows with their knives realistically priced and not reduce them, however many don't have a surplus of cash laying around to pay show expenses, especially in these hard times.

 

[RogerP]

Roger, as per my point above which you didn't quote, I strongly disagree with Les's statement that a maker is conceding his unsold knives are "over priced' by reducing them on Sunday. He's more likely just willing to take less to help cover his show expenses. Especially if he's had a bad show.
IMO, makers should come to shows with their knives realistically priced and not reduce them, however many don't have a surplus of cash laying around to pay show expenses, especially in these hard times.

Well Kevin, you used the phrase "However just because a knife is unsold on Sunday doesn't necessarily mean it's over priced. There's other reasons for knives going unsold at shows." Not me.

That clearly addresses the issue of knives remaining unsold as indicative of their being overpriced, as distinct from the practice of a maker reducing the price to move an unsold knife. If you don't get that distinction, I can't help you.

I understand well many reasons why a maker may choose to do this. And of course, it is entirely their choice to make. But there are potential downsides - as Les pointed out.

And I didn't feel the need to reproduce your entire quote as it appeared just above. I reporoduced the portion I wished to address. Not sure what you are suggesting by pointing that out. Actually, I can guess. And it's not a real shock.

Have a great day.

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

I understand well many reasons why a maker may choose to do this. And of course, it is entirely their choice to make. But there are potential downsides - as Les pointed out.

The first and second knife shows that I attended were at the Roosevelt Hotel in NYC in November, back in 1986 and 1987. Why I didn't go on Friday is beyond dumb....but was there on.......Sunday.

This is when Eric Meyer and other exceedingly wealthy collectors got the "best of the best" on Friday, or the night before....so many makers didn't have anything on their tables except photographs....what is true in retrospect is that there were so many teaching moments associated with this time AND makers that were in the price range I was interested in ($400.00 and below) were overlooked because even back then, this was viewed as "entry level"....and since I was just getting started, had no problem with this....Larry Page was happy to sell me a Loveless style fighter in mirror polished ATS-34 and WONDERFUL cocobolo for $200.00, and in 1987, I was able to score a Pat Crawford Assassin on Sunday for $200.00, marked down from $235.00, and a Ron Gaston Boot Fighter for $250.00, down from $275.00.

Pat is STILL last I heard, willing to deal a little on Sunday, and there are others too...in SOME cases, makers brought too many, or the wrong type of knives....the problem that Les, Murray, Kevin and Roger illustrate so well in the discussion above is that there are so many variables and criteria to employ that a new collector can easily be overwhelmed.

I would say to the OP that a trip to Les Robertson's table for some explanation and education would be time well spent at the NYC show....I sure could have used it back in the day....luckily, I had some great people in their own right to help along the way.

Have fun, and Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

Well Kevin, you used the phrase "However just because a knife is unsold on Sunday doesn't necessarily mean it's over priced. There's other reasons for knives going unsold at shows." Not me.

That clearly addresses the issue of knives remaining unsold as indicative of their being overpriced, as distinct from the practice of a maker reducing the price to move an unsold knife. If you don't get that distinction, I can't help you.

I understand well many reasons why a maker may choose to do this. And of course, it is entirely their choice to make. But there are potential downsides - as Les pointed out.

And I didn't feel the need to reproduce your entire quote as it appeared just above. I reporoduced the portion I wished to address. Not sure what you are suggesting by pointing that out. Actually, I can guess. And it's not a real shock.

Have a great day.

Roger

Les made a statement I felt was unfair to makers, so I challenged him on it.
End of discussion.

 

[Kevin Jones]

You're right STeven. There's always someone willing to help.
Though of course no one person will always be right, the new collector or maker can take in multiple views to determine what works best for him/her. :thumbup:

 

[Amnesiac]

I would say to the OP that a trip to Les Robertson's table for some explanation and education would be time well spent at the NYC show....I sure could have used it back in the day....luckily, I had some great people in their own right to help along the way.

STeven Garsson

Thanks for the helpful advice. I'll be sure to do that.

I would assume that in this world, as in most other collectible worlds, the "true price" of an item is what a collector (or many collectors) is willing to pay. The fact that that price is comprised of many intangibles is part of what makes it really intriguing.

 

[nikoknife48]

I personally buy what I like. When I peruse the tables I first look to see what appeals to me visually. Secondly once a see what a like I then ask to physically hold the knife. Then I can feel how it fits in my hand and check the quality and balance of it. Of course everyone has a budget and this will play a factor on your purchase. I will say that in the back of my mind I do take into consideration will the knife hold or increase in value over time. All the custom makers have their own styles and the craftsmanship is top notch so it's very difficult to make a choice. If this is your first show get ready for some blade eye candy and good luck !

 

[RogerP]

Les made a statement I felt was unfair to makers, so I challenged him on it.
End of discussion.

Oh please.

Thanks for the helpful advice. I'll be sure to do that.

Good call. A number of real good guys on the collector side of things will be there - Peter Gill, Riad, Danbo to name but a few. If you could hook up with them it would be worth your while. Enjoy the show.

Roger

 

[Hmathews]

There is one thing about knife shows and collecting that I have learned the hard way. At least I hope that I have finally learned it. It is that if you see a "killer", "keeper", "Winner", or what ever, knife that you must have and know it will go home with you, when you pick it up, don't put it down. I have done this more times than I care to remember and regretted it just as often. If it grabs you when you see it, it will likely have the same effect on someone else. He might be standing right behind you waiting for you to put the knife back on the table. It happened with me several years ago with a Moran. That guy had to be standing in my back pocket.

 

[r connally]

The NY shows have knives available from makers and purveyors. Michael Donato from knifepurveyors.com will be there. I've found him to be honest and willing to share knowledge in my interactions with him. http://www.knifepurveyor.com/browse/index.aspx?KnifeMaker=All

Purchased the attached fighter from Kevin Casey at November NY Show. As others have said; it caught my attention, I spoke with Kevin and handled it. Looked great, felt great, was in my price range, sold! During the show had great conversations with him, Cliff Parker, Wally Hayes, Stephen Olslewski, Bud Nealy, Daniel Winkler and Karen, Herb Derr, and last but not least...Jon Brand!

Unfortunately, will not make this one

Murray: My wife wants a Harumi folder like yours really badly. Beautiful and impossible to find!

 

[Kevin Jones]

There is one thing about knife shows and collecting that I have learned the hard way. At least I hope that I have finally learned it. It is that if you see a "killer", "keeper", "Winner", or what ever, knife that you must have and know it will go home with you, when you pick it up, don't put it down. I have done this more times than I care to remember and regretted it just as often. If it grabs you when you see it, it will likely have the same effect on someone else. He might be standing right behind you waiting for you to put the knife back on the table. It happened with me several years ago with a Moran. That guy had to be standing in my back pocket.

Good advice Harry.
Tell the maker you want to buy the knife before you put it down, as the person who currently holds it has the option to buy.

I bought a fighter from Harvey Dean at the Reno Show a few years ago. After I told Harvey I would take it and handed it back to him, he said "hoped you weren't going to lay it down as there was four others ready to dive for it if you had".

Purchased the attached fighter from Kevin Casey at November NY Show. As others have said; it caught my attention, I spoke with Kevin and handled it. Looked great, felt great, was in my price range, sold! During the show had great conversations with him, Cliff Parker, Wally Hayes, Stephen Olslewski, Bud Nealy, Daniel Winkler and Karen, Herb Derr, and last but not least...Jon Brand!

I wasn't familiar with Kevin Casey until he joined the CKCA. He makes great knives.
Particularly like his folders.

 

[Danbo]

I think I'll be there Friday, short gray beard, big wooden cane.

Say hi if you run into me.

Can I put that pic on my front door, to ward away unwanted Trick or Treaters on Halloween?


See ya at the show, Brutha! :thumbup:

 

[A. G. Russell]

Well Kevin, you used the phrase "However just because a knife is unsold on Sunday doesn't necessarily mean it's over priced. There's other reasons for knives going unsold at shows." Not me.

That clearly addresses the issue of knives remaining unsold as indicative of their being overpriced, as distinct from the practice of a maker reducing the price to move an unsold knife. If you don't get that distinction, I can't help you.

I understand well many reasons why a maker may choose to do this. And of course, it is entirely their choice to make. But there are potential downsides - as Les pointed out.

And I didn't feel the need to reproduce your entire quote as it appeared just above. I reporoduced the portion I wished to address. Not sure what you are suggesting by pointing that out. Actually, I can guess. And it's not a real shock.

Have a great day.

Roger

In lthe early 1970s it was so common for so many maker to cut their prices on Sunday that buyers would ask for the "Sunday" price on Friday or Saturday. Some of us advised the makers to end this practice and except for new entry makers who otherwise would sell nothing it seemed to end for a long time. Today it may mean a need for gas money or a maker being unsure of the value of his work.

good luck at the show.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Murray,

When you wrote

Don't feel you have to hit a winner as that takes the fun out of collecting

You basically said don't be bothered by buying a knife that is not worth the money.

If the knife was well made and properly priced...it is a winner. Winners can be found at all price points.

Also, you don't want to turn this into another discussion on ROI...then you bring in your financial advisor into your post. Come on Murray make up your mind...are you a collector or an investor?

Hi Amnesiac,

When you are asking for information or advise about buying anything...including custom knives. It is best to look into the back ground of those who are giving you advice.

Often on forums you will find people who give advice on particular areas of the custom knife market....and should not. As their knowledge is primarily in one very small segment of the market.

As STeven pointed out, dealers can be an excellent resource. Dealers by their job description have to do their "homework". They have to be able to know which makers and why. Not just the hot makers who sell out on Friday. Although some are limited to only that knowledge.

Technically, I can tell you a winner from a loser when it comes to presentation and Damascus folders. However the two makers at the show you want to talk to are : Bob Neal and Paul Farina. Those two dealer will have more knowledge with regards to the custom folder market than any other individuals in the room.