Professional Courtesy

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PMQ

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If a customer ask you to make a knife based on or is an exact copy of another design from another maker, how would you ask/inform the other maker? DM them saying "hey, is it okay for me to do a custom order that's a copy of your design"? Thanks.
 
If a customer wants you to make a copy of another maker's work, why don't they just ask the other maker to make the knife? Because they don't want to spend that much? Well, if you are doing the same amount of work, why aren't you charging what the original maker does for that design? In which case the customer might as well have it done by the originator of the design. Sounds confusing but it's not.

Do you need the project that badly? Can you create a design of your own for the client that will perform as well as the design he desires? Try to sell the client on your own ideas.

I don't make direct copies of other people's work for clients. I might make a copy of a design I like for my own use and as an exercise to learn how to make it but it will not be for sale. I will point a client in the direction of another maker if that is what he wants.

I would say, if you want to make the copy, try to contact the original maker and ask if they mind if you make a copy.
 
i4Marc said:
Do you need the project that badly? Can you create a design of your own for the client that will perform as well as the design he desires? Try to sell the client on your own ideas
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I find myself quite fortunate that knife making is only my side hustle (please don't bash me, I know that lots of people pay their bills with knives), meaning that I don't ever need any project that badly, so I don't feel stressful turning down a project I don't feel comfortable doing. And I do feel irritating if I come up with a design and someone just rip that design off.
 
I don't think anyone here is interested in bashing you. Knives are still a side hustle for a lot of us too. No one will come to your door to fight you for copying their design. As you are already aware, it's an etiquette thing. We don't like stepping on each other's toes. That said, there is a lot of borrowing that goes on. That's ok. Just use the borrowed idea with your own twist. If you want the job just sell the client on your own designs. You can come up with a design loosely based on the one the client referenced but re-envision the design through your own eyes. Get the "feeling" or "attitude" of the other knife and use that as the inspiration to create your own original design with that same feeling or attitude.
 
I think it would piss me off if another maker contacted me to find out if I would give them my approval before copying my work for money. I'd rather be blissfully ignorant than have my time wasted with something like that. If you're gonna copy my shit, don't involve me in your shenanigans
 
I think the rule of thumb is if a maker is booked solid for years, or its a design no longer being made.

I doubt rod garcia or Alan Wood minded much.
 
Ask the customer.
Assumption is the mother of all you know what.
Ask him why he wants you to copy a design and how close he wants you to copy it.
 
A lot depends on a BIG parameter that has not been given in the discussion - What style/type knife are we talking about. If it is a bowie or hunter, I doubt any maker has ever made a unique knife in that genre. If it is a patented design or has a very unique feature only used by the original maker, that is also an issue. I agree, making an exact copy of a known style knife is not good idea. However, making a knife like it is very common.

I'm going to approach this from a custom maker's POV.
As John suggested, I would talk with the customer and ask:
1) What feature particularly attracted him to the knife in question
2) What materials did he want the knife made in (They may be very different from the original).
3) Suggest things that I would do that would change the knife. I may have a special handle/blade material in mind, or a feature that I think can be improved (or is unnecessary)..

I have asked a maker for his permission to use a feature/design in the past. I was working on a large wootz dagger of unusual blade geometry. I was creating a blade with reversed bevels (both sides opposite).This is the basis of the Besh Wedge. I contacted Brent and he granted me a single use with credit in any publication. While my blade was very different from the Besh Wedge, it was a modification, and I felt that permission was the best avenue.
 
As Stacy said if it has unique features and a very recognized pattern for a certain maker ask permission.
We as slipjoint makers routinely exchange pattern with each other. Your own style will come out in the final pattern.
 
What if I procured a beat up production knife like a GEC, took it apart, and used it as a template? Is that an ethical grey area?
 
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You can make copies of the Mona Lisa as much as you want, without Leonardo's signature they are worth as much as the canvases on which they are painted 🤣
I will copy every knife I like ,since it is also copies of someone else ......... copies are copies of someone else copies....go back in time as much as you want.
 
After thinking about this, here are some ground rules I have came up with, feel free to correct me:

1. If the knife is still in production/ still being made:
+ Ask the customer why they want you to make it:
- If they say that they want an exact copy at half the price => turn it down
- If they say that they like the design and is okay with modifications (materials or details) => make some modifications and ask the original maker.

2. If the knife is discontinued:
+ Make some modifications and ask the original maker.

3. If that design is very common, basically everyone just copies one another, so it's fine. Like the bowie, tanto,... However, this is a gray area, you might say that a design is very common and thus belongs to the "public domain" but someone else can say that you copied another maker without asking for permission.

4. If there is a very specific detail/function/features, only known to one or a few makers => Make some modifications and ask the original maker.
 
Lorien said:
I think it would piss me off if another maker contacted me to find out if I would give them my approval before copying my work for money. I'd rather be blissfully ignorant than have my time wasted with something like that. If you're gonna copy my shit, don't involve me in your shenanigans
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You have some great designs.

But this whole attitude is ridiculous. You do realize that if our knife founding fathers had this attitude we wouldn’t have so many great knives today.

Centofante, Clay, Lake, Reeve…these guys gave their information and knowledge for free. Some even had books with tutorials on how to make some of their key designs without any strings attached.

The new “knifemakers attitude” bugs me these days. Is a knifemaker nervous that someone else can make their design better than they can?

If someone asked me if they could make one of my designs, I would be thrilled. Just reference me in the name :ie Loveless design.

Too much ME, ME, ME attitude these days. It’s beginning to not feel like knifemakers are friends and passionate. Just all about the dollar.

However, some very distinct characteristics should not be copied, and that would be up to the original designer/maker.

What would our knife world look like if Chris patented the RIL?
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I have asked a maker for his permission to use a feature/design in the past. I was working on a large wootz dagger of unusual blade geometry. I was creating a blade with reversed bevels (both sides opposite).This is the basis of the Besh Wedge. I contacted Brent and he granted me a single use with credit in any publication. While my blade was very different from the Besh Wedge, it was a modification, and I felt that permission was the best avenue.
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When I was grinding my first dagger I grind one side then other opposite side .... I thought how nice it would look if I left it like that , I grinded all four sides on that dagger , but I told myself I would make a dagger like that one day . Now I google what is that Besh Wedge ..........WTF who dare to copy my design ?????????????
Do you will blame me for copying Brent whoever he is ? I grind single hollow bevel blade by mistake ...for left hand user 🤣 and i like it how it come out so i grind other one for right hand.... And i have no idea that Snody or any other knifemaker already have blade like that ? I’m guilty of copying someone’s design ?
 
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Natlek said:
When I was grinding my first dagger I grind one side then other opposite side .... I thought how nice it would look if I left it like that , I grinded all four sides on that dagger , but I told myself I would make a dagger like that one day . Now I google what is that Besh Wedge ..........WTF who dare to copy my design ?????????????
Do you will blame me for copying Brent whoever he is ? I grind single hollow bevel blade by mistake ...for left hand user 🤣 and i like it how it come out so i grind other one for right hand.... And i have no idea that Snody or any other knifemaker already have blade like that ? I’m guilty of copying someone’s design ?
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Scenario 1: If you can somehow prove that Brent got a hold of your design, that has never been release to the public, then he stole from you.
Scenario 2: Maybe you did published it, on bladeforum or instagram, and Brent used that design without asking, then he copied you.
Scenario 3: But if both parties have no idea, then it's just a coincidence.

Personally, I think it's the third scenario.
 
PMQ said:
Scenario 1: If you can somehow prove that Brent got a hold of your design, that has never been release to the public, then he stole from you.
Scenario 2: Maybe you did published it, on bladeforum or instagram, and Brent used that design without asking, then he copied you.
Scenario 3: But if both parties have no idea, then it's just a coincidence.

Personally, I think it's the third scenario.
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Yes , it's just a coincidence. Now what ? I m guilty for something or no ?
I never before saw knife with single hollow bevel , I show it here and someone pointed that Snody make knife like that . Am I guilty for copy ?
What kind of knives should I make so no one accuse me of copying?
Maybe like this one ?
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i4Marc said:
If a customer wants you to make a copy of another maker's work, why don't they just ask the other maker to make the knife? Because they don't want to spend that much? Well, if you are doing the same amount of work, why aren't you charging what the original maker does for that design? In which case the customer might as well have it done by the originator of the design. Sounds confusing but it's not.
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Can you sell your Bowie knife for same price as Nick Wheeler sell Bowie ?
Are you all forget that ...... The name printed on the knife sells/dictates the price of knife. Not everyone can get to that name easy .........
If I were Nick Wheeler, I don t give a ***** who will copy my knives, until he puts my name on them I m OK ... I wish them good luck in career !
 
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