Professional Courtesy

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Bob Loveless and Tony Bose would give out patterns to anyone that asked.

The more successful you are, the less threatened people seem to be.

One guy who wants to try something different, vs chinese industry trying to undercut and wipe out your business. There's a big difference there.
 
More than the actual question ... i fibd it interesting that there is so much passion on either side of this issue. Why is so much emotion tied up in this particular topic?
 
Lots of good responses here, it’s interesting the different angles people approach and see the issue.
On one hand I will make or try anything I want and need no ones approval…on the other I have no desire to copy anyone.
The one thing that’s seems unique to me and a little weird to see duplicated (or not) is the grind.
 
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I think this whole culture is really dumb in the end. A few of my clients, mostly younger makers who ahve been making great stuff on instagram, in their comments are people, sometimes even well known "Cool guy" makers saying "Ummm, it looks like you took inspiration from ______. You should really shout him out"

I think 90% of this is the commoditization of influence on social media. You can make a profitable business with a big following and being an influencer, so many makers will try to enforce some time of hierarchy, that you have to kick up some sweet sweet attention to them. I think it is the dumbest thing.

Knives are the oldest tools on earth, and are quite possibly one of the most produced items across the entirety of human history. The idea that one guy has any claim to a specific shape of blade or swoop of a handle or anything like that is absurd. Dont write someone elses name on your work and try to pass it off as something else, beyond that make whatever you want. Nothing in this field is original, we are all just making sharp bits of metal glued to wood.
People who are in business of any kind making products that they have spent many years designing and perfecting expect to sell that product and make a profit. For example if I make 10 high quality knives and want to sell them, I would like to think that people have enough decency not out right copy my work. Because, if a Pakistan knife maker copies my knives and makes 100 poor quality knives and sells them for a fraction of what I need to get for mine, I am going to lose sales. Once the word gets out about how poorly built the clones are, my future sales will be lost as well when people start associating my knives with the poor workmanship of the Pakistani made knives. Yes, a lot of knife makers do not want their knives copied, a situation occurred here a while back a maker on this forum was waving knives in an Emerson style. Mr. Emerson didn't like that and took legal action and sent him a cease and desist letter, and the maker had to stop waving knives for people. Again I have had Pakistani makers down load photos of my knives and offer them for sale, I didn't like that at all, and that was a mistake that didn't go well for him. I mean if you want to look at it that way, like you say a knife is nothing more than sharp bit of metal glued to a piece of wood. Why even use wood in the first place when thermal injected plastic is far superior, it doesn't crack, rot, or warp you can throw the knife in the dishwasher and it will be fine, try that with a wood handle knife. And also, if everyone starts using plastic they can stop cutting the rain forest down, that would be a win, win situation for everyone. Besides, I would like to think of my work as a bit more than just a sharp bit of metal glued to a piece of wood.
"The idea that one guy has any claim to a specific shape of blade or swoop of a handle or anything like that is absurd. Don't write someone elses name on your work and try to pass it off as something else, beyond that make whatever you want. Nothing in this field is original, we are all just making sharp bits of metal glued to wood."

This!!
I can assure you some knife makers have legal claims to blade shapes like Mr. Emerson and his wave design, Busse Knives with their Talon hole as well as Spyderco knives and their round hole in their blades, are all trade marked.
 
More than the actual question ... i fibd it interesting that there is so much passion on either side of this issue. Why is so much emotion tied up in this particular topic?
I personally find any discussion about ethics to be interesting. We could use more of them, imo.
 
This is perhaps the whole problem that our society has. There's nothing written that claims anyone has a right to make a profit.
Now one said it was a right to make profit, being in business for yourself in just about any field can be difficult, lots of small businesses fail. But, for myself as a part time knife making business I would expect other knife makers to have the decency not down load my photos or copy my knives, make cheap knock offs and sell them for their own personal profit. This has happened to me three times now, and I was just about ready to start having my work trade marked. You see, if you have you work trade marked, you do have the right to keep people from copying it.
 
This is perhaps the whole problem that our society has. There's nothing written that claims anyone has a right to make a profit.
William - I think I do not understand the core of the point you are making. I understand that there is no "right" for a company to make a profit (after all, there are plenty of "non profit" companies out there that do a business, employ people, help the community, but do not make a profit for themselves (my local "Y" (formerly ymca) being in my mind a prime example). But at some point you roll down to the individual, who has to, well, live (make enough money to buy food, afford shelter, pay for transportation), hopefully consistently save enough to live off of in older years. In some sense, this is "making a profit". A self employed individual in that sense then needs to make a profit (in some way) - otherwise they would be in very dire straits. So, in that sense, we all need to make a profit (bring in more money than we spend) .... so I think you point is actually subtly something else??
 
Now one said it was a right to make profit, being in business for yourself in just about any field can be difficult, lots of small businesses fail. But, for myself as a part time knife making business I would expect other knife makers to have the decency not down load my photos or copy my knives, make cheap knock offs and sell them for their own personal profit. This has happened to me three times now, and I was just about ready to start having my work trade marked. You see, if you have you work trade marked, you do have the right to keep people from copying it.
Well...........how that would protect you ? They only can not use your name ?
The term trademark refers to a recognizable insignia, phrase, word, or symbol that denotes a specific product and legally differentiates it from all other products of its kind. A trademark exclusively identifies a product as belonging to a specific company and recognizes the company's ownership of the brand
 
Now one said it was a right to make profit, being in business for yourself in just about any field can be difficult, lots of small businesses fail. But, for myself as a part time knife making business I would expect other knife makers to have the decency not down load my photos or copy my knives, make cheap knock offs and sell them for their own personal profit. This has happened to me three times now, and I was just about ready to start having my work trade marked. You see, if you have you work trade marked, you do have the right to keep people from copying it.
IIRC you can not trademark a physical object. Trade marks cover slogans, logos, or how something is branded.

What does protect it is a copyright.
 
IIRC you can not trademark a physical object. Trade marks cover slogans, logos, or how something is branded.

What does protect it is a copyright.
I honestly don’t remember which does what, but I do know artwork and music can be protected with trademark or copyright. It would have cost m me about $250 to get the process going, which I elected not to do at this time.
 
I honestly don’t remember which does what, but I do know artwork and music can be protected with trademark or copyright. It would have cost m me about $250 to get the process going, which I elected not to do at this time.
A patent is for a whole thing (object) or for a process (but it needs to be novel / non obvious, so a knife of any kind would definitely not be novel). A copyright is for a completed thing founded in "information" ... like a piece of writing or a piece of music, where the "information" is not the text or the physical musical score, it is the information communicated by the text or the score. A trade mark is a specific piece of writing (including the font and font size), or a picture or piece of artwork that is intended to identify a product as being produced by a specific manufacturer.

For example, Kleenex is quite aggressive in defending their trademark of "Kleenex" (which if you look at it includes a very specific text). If you look at their boxes and their adds, they always describe their product as "Kleenex brand facial tissue". What they want to accomplish is NOT to allow anyone making some inferior product of facial tissue as "kleenex" .... which if allowed can cause people to associate Kleenex with an inferior product. Tivo does the same thing. According to them, their product is a "Tivo brand digital video recorder". It is a BAD thing for them to have people say "I'm just going to Tivo this program". Coke lost this battle in the US South. Their, ANY kind of soft drink is "Coke". A conversation might go "I want Coke". Server responds "what kind of Coke .... Sprite Coke, Mt. Dew Coke, Pepsi Coke?, etc, etc. Bad Thing for Coca Cola to run in to that......
 
People who are in business of any kind making products that they have spent many years designing and perfecting expect to sell that product and make a profit. For example if I make 10 high quality knives and want to sell them, I would like to think that people have enough decency not out right copy my work. Because, if a Pakistan knife maker copies my knives and makes 100 poor quality knives and sells them for a fraction of what I need to get for mine, I am going to lose sales. Once the word gets out about how poorly built the clones are, my future sales will be lost as well when people start associating my knives with the poor workmanship of the Pakistani made knives. Yes, a lot of knife makers do not want their knives copied, a situation occurred here a while back a maker on this forum was waving knives in an Emerson style. Mr. Emerson didn't like that and took legal action and sent him a cease and desist letter, and the maker had to stop waving knives for people. Again I have had Pakistani makers down load photos of my knives and offer them for sale, I didn't like that at all, and that was a mistake that didn't go well for him. I mean if you want to look at it that way, like you say a knife is nothing more than sharp bit of metal glued to a piece of wood. Why even use wood in the first place when thermal injected plastic is far superior, it doesn't crack, rot, or warp you can throw the knife in the dishwasher and it will be fine, try that with a wood handle knife. And also, if everyone starts using plastic they can stop cutting the rain forest down, that would be a win, win situation for everyone. Besides, I would like to think of my work as a bit more than just a sharp bit of metal glued to a piece of wood.

I can assure you some knife makers have legal claims to blade shapes like Mr. Emerson and his wave design, Busse Knives with their Talon hole as well as Spyderco knives and their round hole in their blades, are all trade marked.

I dont think anyone was ever going to pay the full price of your knives was so uneducated about knives to confuse your knife with a Pakistani made copy.

I use nice knives because I enjoy the functionality and beauty of a well made knife.

But you have seen other knives and drawn inspiration from them. Others will see your work and draw inspiration. Nothing is lost, but new knives are gained.
 
This is perhaps the whole problem that our society has. There's nothing written that claims anyone has a right to make a profit.
somebody wrote something along the lines- and I'll paraphrase- 'Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. Hopefully I got the order right. Anyway, it's pretty vague but it might have something to do with what you're talking about
 
Again I have had Pakistani makers down load photos of my knives and offer them for sale, I didn't like that at all, and that was a mistake that didn't go well for him. I mean if you want to look at it that way, like you say a knife is nothing more than sharp bit of metal glued to a piece of wood. Why even use wood in the first place when thermal injected plastic is far superior, it doesn't crack, rot, or warp you can throw the knife in the dishwasher and it will be fine, try that with a wood handle knife.
What did you do about it ?

You can see it in Facebook Groups every single day.
If you mention it to them, they block you, but they have not stopped.
 
So we are free to copy every Swords , Katana , Tantos , Bowie , Loveless , but we can not copy small knife from barely known knife maker ?
 
This seems to have turned to a copyright/trademark discussion rather than a making a knife in a similar style to one other maker (who would have taken that style from other designs, who took other designs, etc.). If you have a patent/trademark/copyright then yes nobody can use that without your permission. Somebody sends me a picture of a clip point bowie, drop point hunter, or camp chopper, or this or that, etc. and says can you make this. I'm not worried about "stealing" somebody's design or getting sued.
 
I think there have been at least 2 or 3 threads on this topic in last couple of years.

I think its always about what is morally right (subjective) vs legally allowed (objective).

If something is legally not allowed (eg copying a protected patent or TM), it doesn't mean that someone won't infringe your intellectual property (TM, patent or copyright law in US). It just gives you a right to sue for this infringment (eg damages, cease and desist etc).

Then there is the question of international enforceability of your rights thay may be protected just locally (for example only in US under US law).

To summon up, a one man show knifemaker would have a really tough going trying to protect his patent or TM against a Pakistani with no address.

Short summary from USPTO:

Trademark
PatentCopyright
What's legally protected?A word, phrase, design, or a combination that identifies your goods or services, distinguishes them from the goods or services of others, and indicates the source of your goods or services.Technical inventions, such as chemical compositions like pharmaceutical drugs, mechanical processes like complex machinery, or machine designs that are new, unique, and usable in some type of industry.Artistic, literary, or intellectually created works, such as novels, music, movies, software code, photographs, and paintings that are original and exist in a tangible medium, such as paper, canvas, film, or digital format.
What's an example?Coca-Cola® for soft drinksA new type of hybrid engineSong lyrics to “Let It Go”
from "Frozen"
What are the benefits
of federal protection?
Protects the trademark from being registered by others without permission and helps you prevent others from using a trademark that is similar to yours with related goods or services. Safeguards inventions and processes from other parties copying, making, using, or selling the invention without the inventor’s consent.Protects your exclusive right to reproduce, distribute, and perform or display the created work, and prevents other people from copying or exploiting the creation without the copyright holder’s permission.

You can TM your makers mark, you can patent a knife (particular tehicalities and so on, just do a quick google on any patent database and search for “kitchen knife" or “hunting knife) and in particulqr cases you could also copyright your knife (hard to say). From wiki on US copyright law:
"Works subject to copyright law:
The United States copyright law protects "original works of authorship," fixed in a tangible medium[8] including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Copyright law includes the following types of works:

  • Literary
  • Musical
  • Dramatic
  • Pantomimes and choreographic works
  • Pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
  • Audio-visual works
  • Sound recordings
  • Derivative works
  • Compilations
  • Architectural works[9]

Idea–expression dichotomyEdit

Copyright law protects the "expression" of an idea, but copyright does not protect the "idea" itself. This distinction is called the idea–expression dichotomy.[10] The distinction between "idea" and "expression" is fundamental to copyright law. From the Copyright Act of 1976 (17 U.S.C. § 102):

In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.
For example, a paper describing a political theory is copyrightable. The paper is the expression of the author's ideas about the political theory. The theory itself is just an idea, and is not copyrightable. Another author is free to describe the same theory in their own words without infringing on the original author's copyright.[11]

Although fundamental, the idea–expression dichotomy is often difficult to put into practice. Reasonable people can disagree about where the unprotectable "idea" ends and the protectable "expression" begins. As Judge Learned Hand put it, "Obviously, no principle can be stated as to when an imitator has gone beyond copying the 'idea,' and has borrowed its 'expression.' Decisions must therefore inevitably be ad hoc."[12]".
 
A patent is for a whole thing (object) or for a process (but it needs to be novel / non obvious, so a knife of any kind would definitely not be novel). A copyright is for a completed thing founded in "information" ... like a piece of writing or a piece of music, where the "information" is not the text or the physical musical score, it is the information communicated by the text or the score. A trade mark is a specific piece of writing (including the font and font size), or a picture or piece of artwork that is intended to identify a product as being produced by a specific manufacturer.

For example, Kleenex is quite aggressive in defending their trademark of "Kleenex" (which if you look at it includes a very specific text). If you look at their boxes and their adds, they always describe their product as "Kleenex brand facial tissue". What they want to accomplish is NOT to allow anyone making some inferior product of facial tissue as "kleenex" .... which if allowed can cause people to associate Kleenex with an inferior product. Tivo does the same thing. According to them, their product is a "Tivo brand digital video recorder". It is a BAD thing for them to have people say "I'm just going to Tivo this program". Coke lost this battle in the US South. Their, ANY kind of soft drink is "Coke". A conversation might go "I want Coke". Server responds "what kind of Coke .... Sprite Coke, Mt. Dew Coke, Pepsi Coke?, etc, etc. Bad Thing for Coca Cola to run in to that......
Apparently you can have a small part of something patented on a knife. CMFTW was waving knives for people and posting pics here on the forum. Emerson had the wave patented, sent CMFTW a cease and desist letter and he had to stop waving knives for people, Emerson won that battle. I think Busse knives had a similar issue with knife makers coping their Talon hole, and same thing, they had it patented, they had to stop coping it.
 
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