Prologue at the funeral

Ok, not to belabor the point, but instead to offer a different perspective, here’s my take on what happened at Schrade. Let’s say you have a company of over 700 people in the mid to late 90’s. Your company has always had cash flow problems. They made their money from just before the start of hunting season until just after Christmas. Come January they had a bunch of money in their pocket and like a kid in a candy store they spent every bit of it on shiny new toys. Come the summer all vendors were complaining about not getting paid, but they knew the history, it would be ok in the fall. You get into a project like let’s say KitchenAid which was funded partially by grants but only about ½. In theory a great opportunity, sales for this type of knives usually occur during the summer months as it’s often a wedding present. Logic says it should smooth out your cash flow. But, let’s also say that you not only didn’t make money on the project but probably lost your shirt (tool room workers working overtime hand fitting handles). Now let’s say business is already in somewhat of a mild down turn, and along comes the tragic events of 9/11. Knives were blamed on all the news stations and all of a sudden you special market business pretty much gets canceled the next day. Did 9/11 cause the end of Schrade, no, not in the way it was explained in the media, but in a different way it was a major part. That cash that always came at the end of the year didn’t come that year. Soon after there was a lay off. At the same time your competitors, most notably Gerber, are buying there knives overseas, and undercutting you in the market. These knives are getting to be better than decent quality for a low price. Your margins are already low, you look at your traditional products and realize you can’t afford to make them and sell them to your largest customer, Wal-Mart. So what do you do? You work on new products, trying to copy the knives your competitor’s are buying overseas, but you’re going to do it in house. Or maybe make some parts in house and imported some items. The problem is these imported items need more rework then it would have taken to make them in house from the start. On top of that between your cash flow problems and some start up issues your parts are late, you end up spending enormous amounts of money to overnight parts from China. More cash out the window. None of your vendors will give you terms anymore, many will not even do COD, they want cash up front. So you have another layoff, people who leave aren’t replaced. So now it’s mid 2003 you’re probably down to 250-300 people. Your ½ of what you were just a few short years ago. Late that year the Baer family has had enough, they bring in a new CEO his first action is to lay off just under 1/3 of the workforce, to steady the cash flow. Unfortunately he’s also got a huge ego, he fights with the bank and destroys whatever is left of the relationship with them. His ego is also big enough that he figures he can “fix” Schrade, Camillus and one other company at the same time. Camillus fired him shortly after the Schrade auction. Yes there was a very large quantity of orders on the books, about a $30 million backlog. Yes there were a vast quantity of knives that as was pointed out before were almost but not quite done, but I don’t believe it was anywhere near 1 million in quantity. In a very good year Schrade produced maybe 5 million knives, this ramp up in assembly and finishing for the most part occurred late in the 3rd quarter to the end of the year. 2004 was not a good year, and there weren’t enough parts or workers. In the end Schrade ran out of money. Yes Schrade could have been saved, but because of the past sins, a bad customer base, one man’s enormous ego and a bank that was fed up it didn’t happen.

Did SMKW say they were going to keep the collection together, I don’t know I wasn’t there. Did anyone expect Taylor to manufacture Schrade knives themselves or have them made in the US, I don’t know. But, I didn’t expect him to. Maybe only as a stop gap until he had them tooled up overseas. The good folks at CSC, I wish them nothing but the best, but it’s not the same situation. They can start up with a high quality American made product and those of us who desire such a product will support them. Schrade had such a product (sort of); they were caught between a rock and a hard place. They couldn’t afford to sell this product and they couldn’t get any more money for it from their biggest customer.

I’m sure most of you have read the internet article on Wal-Mart and Vlasic Pickles www.kuratrading.com/PDF/Walmart1.pdf#search='walmart pickles') Wal-Mart is a monopoly plain and simple. Why don’t the American people or even American business stand up and demand their breakup? Now LT, if you want to have a discussion about this, I’d be glad to have that discussion. Let’s just have it somewhere other than on this forum. We might even agree.

That’s my opinion, I was there. If any of you others who were there (Employees, Custom Collaborators, Customers, Vendors, etc) have a different opinion I’d love to hear them.
 
The problem with American manufacturing is being driven by us, the American citizens. Most people scream for bottom dollar, cheaper cheaper cheaper they say. We that hang out on these knife websites are but a small sample of the buying publc, and we are mostly what I'd call "knife knuts". We know the product, we know the material, we know the manufacturers. We DO NOT represent the average public person who is buying a knife. They see a product for $49.95, and one right next to it that is $19.97, guess which they will grab, ever time, UNLESS they are a knowledgable knife enthusiast. Look over these knife forums: a few small sections devoted to traditional knives, which was mostly the product that Schrade concentrated on; then compare that to the sections devoted to "modern" knives and products. Benchmade, Spyderco, and a zillion foreign knockoffs is what Mr. Average is looking at, not some old rusty Old Timer in dusty packaging. Me, I'd buy the Old Timer, ever time. Or the Case, Camillus, Buck, etc. Anything BUT the assisted opener plastic handled pocket clip knife.

Remember, in the earlier parts of the Twentieth Century, American cutlery was near nonexistant. It got a jump start simply because of World War I. Before that time, the English and the Germans ruled the cutlery business. Some of our most famous cutlery makers got their starts jobbing imported cutlery from these two countries.

I don't blame Walmart, I don't blame communist China, I don't blame the bank, for the demise of Schrade. It is the fault of the American public for #1. Buying tasteless garbage, and #2. Buying by the price as the major deciding factor. If China crap didn't sell, it wouldn't be here.

I think that Camillus needs to step up their marketing of their products. There is a logical and fitting successor to the loss of Schrade. They already have some product that is comparable and can easily make knives that would subsitute for Schrades venerable product line. An old line American company, chock in the middle of Camillus NY. And even Case, everybody decries Case product as being too expensive to replace a Schrade, but Case has a bunch of product that is comparably priced to the Old Timer and Uncle Henry lines. Jumping up and down and grumbling about the demise of Schrade will never bring them back, so we ought to support these real American companies, instead of buying product from the enemy. I have exactly ONE Chinese knife, and I didn't buy it, I found it down an old couch. I have to buy a lot of China product, such as this computer, simply because there is NO other product built somewhere else to substitute for it, but I darn well do try to avoid China if possible. I hate buying from countries with about a zillion megatons of H-bombs pointed at us. :barf:
 
I have no relation to bk420. I've been registered here since November, and you can check my posts.

I take strong offense to It632ret's use of the term "chink." While this forum should tolerate varying levels of education and sophistication, I do not think that this language is appropriate at all.
 
bk400,
Freedom of speech is one of the freedoms we are rapidly loosing, but I think we still have the freedom to voice our opinions in a public forum.

I believe LT is old enough that he probably remembers the Korean War, when even the media used the term "Chink" with impunity.

I imagine the term has it's origin in that war. Much like the term "Wop" (for Italians) had the origin of it's popularity in WWII. There was a case, told to me by a WWII Veteran, where the word "Italian" was mistaken over the radio for "battalion." The person on the receiving end of the communication had asked if the scouts saw anyone up ahead. They answered, "Just two Italians." The person hearing that answer ordered a massive artillery barrage because he thought they were up against two battalions of enemy troops.
Hence, the Army issued the order that Italian's would be would be referred to as "Wops" in all radio communications.

The term "Chink" would probably carry better, on the left over WWII radios they used in Korea, than the word "Chinese."

We used the term VC for the Viet Cong in Vietnam, short for "Victor Charles" from the radio alphabet used by all branches of the US military at that time. It wasn't long until the term "Charlie" was applied to the enemy.

I am certain that LT did not intend the term as a personal insult.
I figure that I have the freedom to choose to be offended or not. I think you also have that freedom.

I am part Indian, part German and part Scots. I am not offended when someone uses the term "Injun" or "Kraut," or "Scotch," (to say someone is Scotch is to say they are a drunk, according to a of mine friend from Scotland).

If we were all PC and used the proper terms for everything, and did the right thing so that no one would ever be offended, we would live in a very bland & boring world. And........someone would still get offended about something........just human nature.

IMHO,
Dale
 
BK420, thank you for your explanation. That's the most plausible explanation I've heard for the causes that led to the demise of Schrade. I for one am glad that insiders and ex-employees are starting to surface here.
 
MIster 632.
You are 200 proof correct.
If only the youngster would pay attention but they too are greedy.
Back in the day you saved for months... years.. to buy a good American product
Years later you at least saved up and bought.. maybe.. from an ally.. such as some nice dinnerware from the UK.. some nice German cutlery or a fine automobile or electronic gadget from the Japanese.. who actually move some of their production HERE, as it should be !

The Chinkaneeze.. PBUT ( piss be upon them).. and Walmart and any other fatcat, scumbag sellout.

KIds today would rather own 30 P.O.S. Knives than one or two nice ones.
They're " collectors" :jerkit:
 
Respectfully, Orvet, there are many slang nicknames that were acceptable in past conflicts that are no longer acceptable today. It is simply the world in which we live. My grandfather was an American of Chinese descent and fought the Japanese in WWII. I served in the conflicts post 9/11. We have earned the right not to be called chinks. Yes, speech should be protected in the legal sense. I'm just saying that I find it highly inappropriate.
 
To BK 420 we do not have to meet to agree I do agree with just about everything in your last well written analysis. I thankyou for addressing your points in the manner you have which you might agree is in a little bit different format than your original statment which simply wrote off my opinion as delusional and suggested I refrain from addressing subjects other than those that I have authored books about and indeed that this subject was not even appriopriate to this forum. In fact I must say the the consise direct and well written posting almost seems to have been authored with some possible outside assistence, which in either event is not important ( at least to me ) what is important is that you have brought out some important and I feel valid points. Everything you say I feel is part of what did in fact add GREATLY to the closing. I never said that managment was not in part, in a great part, responsible I just said that it should not be taken as the sole reason.

In order to validate this opinion I simply point out that Chinas trade and currency ( iebanking ) procedures are presently uder senate investigation for the very reasons that I have been claiming all along were part of ( but not solely responsible ) the demise. These are the Senators words " Saying China dosen't manipulate currency" (ie banking ) " is saying the sky is not blue". another quote regarding manufacturing Ulster fell by 2,100 jobs to 4300 a 33 percent decline . from Jan 2001 to Jan 2006. This is the exact time frame that Schrade went under. Will you grant that it could have had just a teeney weenie part in is closing or do you contend that it was just a coincidence like the fact that this is the country who happened to get the manufacturing gain of the Schrade market just happened to be the Communist chinese.( Politically correct term for commy chinks) I would not wish to insult any ones sensibilitys by using a term not socially acceptable after all, this country is already so politically correct that the rest of the world considers us a laughing stock ( ie personal opinion). How about starting a lawsuit against me for verbal abuse. on one side we can have all the wonderful people who never,( oh my,) offend anyone with a crass unkind ethnic term , ( goodness how crude. ) . On the other side we can have the ghosts of all the valient who fought for our right for free speech. Of which perhapes you may very well be one of those people ( BK400 ) in any event I support your opinion. If you find my comments crass, or offensive, please know I find your desire for censorship of free speech just as offensive. Still I truly support your right to say it.

The Schumer-Graham China Free Trade Act is due for a vote this month and would slap a 27.5 percent tariff on Chinese goods if the chinese refuse to change some of there present business practices. ( By the way do you feel such a tariff if in place when Schrade was around might have helped keep them in business??) well whether it would have or not is now a moot point . If you do not feel that this would have or will help in the future that I urge you to contact the senator and voice your opinion. In fact I urge every american to voice there opinion however they feel.

On the Taylor and smokey aspect of this question I have voiced my opinions and respect the fact that you you did not address them on the comment that you did not know what had gone on. I also agree that Taylor would have been expected to start producing these in communist China. I have also inferred that this was a foregone conclusion. Why not if americans will buy them and they are the cheapest to produce. That business. I do not agree with doing business with them however I understand it.

To Phil in Alabama. Sir YES YES YES. at least in my opinion your knowledge of this history and the practices and opinions of the american are correct. I also concur with your suggestion to support american firms, I also agree with your explanations of the buying public. I also agree with your opinion that the Red Chinese are not our buddies. Thankyou for your point of view while I support all right of opinion it is nice when you agree with some one.

Now I am going to have lunch perhapes some hot dogs, kraut, perhapes a small beer ( a nip ) and watch an old john Wayne movie ( one of the lines in the movie makes reference to our then enemys as little yellow devils.) Now regarding the above statment if the term Hot dogs has insulted any canines ( who cannot speak for themselves ) in that it is taken to mean female dogs in heat please be assured that the term is in regard to a slang term for a small sausage. often sold at baseball games. AHHH my morning posting the closest thing to smelling gun powder in the morning I love it. LT PS Two postings have come in when I was writing this posting to BK400 I put in the main frame of this posting I intimated that you might have been a veteran ( not that that behooves the point ). I for one thankyou and all other americans for there sacrifices and contributions. My heritage is mixed however when asked what I am I say american. I do not add a prefix to my name Afro, polish, irish, ect. That is simply how I feel you of course may not feel that way.In that respect the thing to remember is that all american blood is red. While I feel I have the right to say what I want. I feel you are correct in that in some cases it is inappriopriate. Even if it was not or ever directed at AMERICANS.
 
bk400, I served in Vietnam and openly referred to the VC and NVA as Slopes, Slopeheads, Dinks, Gooks, and other disparaging names that I've long since forgotten. At first, the terms came into common usage as a means of dehumanizing the enemy, creating a clear distinction between them and us, making it easier to hate them and to kill them. At some point in time, all Vietnamese of every political persuasion, were at least thought of, if not referred to, as Slopes, Dinks, Gooks, etc. It took me quite some time to change my behavior and stop using those terms. What finally did it was to see Vietnamese people in a positive light, here in the USA.

From what I've heard from soldiers currently or recently serving in Iraq, the same thing is being repeated by referring to Arabs as Wogs, Ragheads, Towelheads, Camel Jockeys, Sand Niggers, and so on. I think every conflict produces a similar reaction regarding each new enemy. The passage of time seems to restore our sensibilities when it comes to how we interact with different cultures; it's a matter of respect.
 
guy,I was a dealer many years ago and I bought my lower end stuff
from taylor,he was honest gave me good prices,sure I hate
the idea that western gone,schrade,and now buck(making knives in china)
I MEAN I HATE to see that but,Americans does NOT care about jobs
here,NOPE,unless its their job.what a shame,
jim chambers
arizonie@msn.com
 
Just to expand in my opinion on some info BK420 said a couple of posts ago (he/she sounds like they were in the know)

A) The past sins are far to many to list here. Suffice it to say, the Schrade factory was probably one of the most inefficient operations I have ever worked in.

B) By jumping into bed with Wal-Mart without any real consideration for being able to actually make a profit on sales to Wal-Mart, Schrade set in motion their final demise.

C) The egomaniac, “Mr. B.”, rolled into the parking lot in his $85,000 BMW and proceeded to simply piss off the world without actually contributing anything worth a broken bolster.

D) The bank finally pulled the string when all the Enron-like financial reporting fell apart. If Schrade had been a public company management would be in front of a judge right now answering felony fraud charges.
 
I agree and it is good to see some people who were involved stepping up to the plate and as I have said no one ever disclaimed the culpability of Schrades management and practices. I save simply said from the beginning that the managment of Schrade was not the only factor which brought it down. However no one has said one word about the senate commitee which is the reason why I brought this topic up again. It maintains that Communist Chinas policys and actions have brought unfair and illegal pressures on american firms one ( which has been my contention all along as a viable part of the problems which lead to Schrades demise ).. NO ONE has disputed this you have all ignored it. I brought it up to substanciate my original contention. I do not support the position that managment was faultless. I simply say that part of the problem was the illegal manipulations caused by a foreign government, Part of that was Schrades going into Walmart and over extending remachining. Dealing with the commys a coincidental changing of the bank. Notice I am not mentioning Smokey or Taylor which both have big industial and economic ties with the red Chinese. Either come out and say the Senate investigation is bull or admit that it has been established as a valid response to these same concerns that I have maintained from the beginning... Stop avoiding this specific aspect of this issue. I have said it several times I agree management was a big part maybe the biggest part of this problem, I also believe that it was not the only part of the problem.

I never found Schrade particularly efficient and I mentioned it to them. I always felt that there liberal policy on security was particularly lax. As far as it being one of the most inefficient that you have ever worked in I do not know where you worked but I certainly take your word for it. I agree the WAL Mart move was was a bad one. However I feel it was part of luring Schrade into a position where they would have to overextend, you simply give no reason why they did it. you say that it was done without expectaion of making a profit. Also that they were in bed together so I guess that means that money didn't matter but the move was for some kind of gratification. Well that part still has me a bit confused????? I also agree it that was a leading factor to there going out of business however I believe it was part of a larger plan you seem to feel that it was solely managments intent and direction to bankrupt the company. Do you really feel managment intentionally wanted to put themselves out of work.

I do not know which Mr B to whom you refer. I know history has shown Albert and Henry Baer to have been known for there business acumen. Owning an 85,000 dollar car is really not that rare today. If he was the owner of Schrade and was driving himself now that I would find surprising.

I do not know of this incident however apparently you were there so I certainly take your word for it and from your tone it would deem that he at least pissed you off. Perhapes rightly, I just do not know, however I can certainly understand your feelings as to what he may have said ( since you were obviously privvy to any meetings and what went on ). I know if it had been my job I certainly would have been disgruntled ( to say the least ) whether what he said or offered was valid or not.

The new bank ( just a coincidence I mean the old bank who had stuck with them in the past probably would have done the same thing.) However it in fact was the new bank. Pulled the pin when they found Enron like reports.
While Schrade was a private company it still had legal responsibilities to its employees ect. If there was a legal violation they should be held remandable. However the only tenable legal actions that have been proposed in which Schrade fits into the time frame and are part of are those that I have held from the beginning Those are now being addressed by the Senate commitee that not been mentioned by anyone but me.

My heart goes out to every Schrade employee who was uprooted and unemployed. My sorrow extends to all those who gave there lives and years of loyality, to Schrade and whose familys went on to contribute to all aspects of our country. Schrade and its people were great neighbors and friends . Its statment of made with pride by proud AMERICANS. Says it all. Schrade lost the eye of the tiger when it went to Wal Mart and started dealing with the communists switching over to chinese parts and products. By placing the bottom line before the lessons of history and the price paid by those before. they went from the hunter to the hunted. The trap was baited with money and foreign endeavers, the decision to do so were owner and managerial in nature, but the trap was laid and baited by others. LT
 
LT, I appologize for my previous comments, yes they were out of line. I felt a large part of the story was missing. Hopefully I have now filled that part in. As you can probably tell I am a little passionette about the subject. I have deleted 2 earlier posts.
 
I do not know which Mr B to whom you refer.
Click to expand...

Not Albert or Henry Baer. Sorry LT but if you don't know who this "Mr B." is then you weren't told by the highest executive at Schrade that the collection would be kept together. This would be the new egomaniac CEO that BK420 spoke of.

I wouldn't call Schrade the most inefficient place I ever worked at. It was just very very very slow to change. That mixed with the constant demands for totally new things was a dangerous mix.
 
Obviously I share your passion. No apology is ever needed for me as long as the person expressing there views is stating what they believe allows me to express my rebuttal ( and will put up with my spelling.) It is obvious you spoke from the heart I could not ask more. albeit that having been said, Please accept my Thankyou. If you would like me to delete something you find offensive I certainly will do so but I would really like the readers to see and understand as much of this story as possible from all points of view so that perhapes some of the pitfalls Schrade got into might just be avoided by some other firm down the road. Well perhapes that would be a bit much to expect but perhapes somewhere sometime it might help. At least perhapes it will keep it in the very short public memory just a while longer. Please be assured that my statments are as heartfelt as yours. As I said at the beginning of this thread the knowledge or opinions you or anyone brings to this table whether I agree or not, are welcome ( at least by me ). There seems to have been some hesitency on the part of some of the Schrade people to express there views I guess they have there reasons and I respect those opinions. In my case I have always said what I felt and I have paid the price for it in my career and life so I can understand the position of people who choose candor and tact as a direction it is just not my way.

Now just a few points while in regard to this subject ( Schrade) I maintain that I have some valid points. However I do agree with your assessment on my state of mind, which could often be called delusional. ( which as you may imagine is not the worst thing I have been called.) I often attain this higher plane with the assistence of alcoholic spirits. I also agree that my intellect, knowledge and understanding is such that you again are correct in that I probably should not interject opinions on them. I also agree with those who think that I am a prejudiced, right wing, angry old man. To all I offend ( because of this lack of tact or candor) I also apologize.

If there is a heaven there is probably a hell. In which case chances are that will be my destination if that is the case and if I have the option when I arrive in hades. I plan to order the devil into my presence and explain that he has to make some changes because the place he has been running ( well like hell ) and that he better square up his act before the red chinese take over. He will probably tell me that he gets his pitchforks from them and they offered him a Walmart contract. LT PS ISC I just saw your post please do not call me a liar I was told by Mr Gardiner who I knew as the president of Schrade that the collection was being kept together we were in the executive board room alone I was taking the last pictures of the collection on the wall. Later I was told this again with others present. he advised me that he was told that by MR Pipes as I have said in the MVP thread. If you have something to say I would be glad to hear it I realize that there are things I do not know. I have continually said I appreciate all views oh yes and I still await your opinion as to why there are senate investigations for all the reasons that I have continually stated were behind much of this entire scenario. This factor is still being ignored. If it in your mind has no validity why not state that as your opinion.

Now if you will excuse me after all this I am going into my bar room to become pleasantly delusional. Again I thank all for there input. Even though I feel like a pincushion. Thanks again BK I do appreciate your comments.
 
FormerSchradeGuy said:
A) The past sins are far to many to list here. Suffice it to say, the Schrade factory was probably one of the most inefficient operations I have ever worked in.
Click to expand...

Hold on LT, you've misunderstood me and got me confused with someone else. I didn't call you a liar, Mr. Gardiner was not the highest executive at Schrade at the time of the closing. "Mr. B" was Mr. Gardiner's boss, all I meant was that there was someone higher and he may have been on a different page than Mr.Gardiner (trust me probably was, they didn't see eye to eye on very much). I'm not going to name "Mr. B" as I'm not sure about what litigation is going on. May not matter but I'm not ready and seems like no one else is (maybe someone at Camillus will help out here). Also I didn't say Schrade was one of the most inefficient operatons I ever worked at FormerSchradeGuy did and I won't argue with him, I've seen worse and I think it was more of an unwillingness to change.
 
You are right, sorry, I misunderstood and I do not know Mr B I seem to be dodging to many bullets and still haven't had a drink. I have really said and made any points that I felt pertinent. However anyone having information who would like to share I would love to know the rest of the story. Again sorry I did not interpret your meaning correctly I have reread it. Thankyou for the correction and explanation. If this thread is not confusing enough perhapes next week we could bring up the Kennedy assassination. LT
 
It looks like FormerSchradeGuy, ISC_RIP and BK420 are all ex-employees of Schrade. BK420 is no relation to bk400, even though they have similar handles and bk400 is part Chinese by heritage and the BK in their names does not stand for Burger King.
 
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