Proposal for a special run of steel...

Phillip Patton

Phillip Patton

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
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I have no idea how this works, but wasn't the 1084 that Mace/Aldo is selling a special run?
I was thinking yesterday (always a dangerous thing), lot's of people like 15n20 mixed with 1084 for damascus, but they don't sell it in thick stock
Also, I would like a hypereutectoid nickel steel.
What I would like to see, is a steel with the following composition:

Carbon: 1.00%
Nickel: 2.5-3%
Silicon: .25%
Vanadium: .25%
Molybdenum: .30%
OR
Manganese: .80%

Basically, it would have the deep hardening properties of 1084 or O1, the light colored etching properties of 15n20, and the edge holding properties and fine grain of W2.:D

I'm not sure about the molybdenum. I want the steel to be somewhat deep hardening, and I'm afraid adding a lot of manganese might counteract the brightness of the nickel. Moly would make it deep hardening without affecting the etch, but it would also make it a pain to anneal.

I would have it rolled in two thicknesses: thin (.67-.125") for mixing with Aldo's 1084, and thick (.5") for those of us who like working with thicker stuff.

Is this realistic, or am I dreaming?

Any thoughts are welcome.
 
Aldo found a large billet of 1084 and had it rolled to his spec.s, I think he may have a couple more lined up.

Sound like a good steel Phillip, I think your right about the Mn, it will need some but may want to keep that low. This can be done and the only draw back is it may require an 80,000 pound order.
 
I've found .090 15N20 from Kelly Couples with Aldo's 1/4" 1084 is a very good mix. For myself, I see no need to use thicker 15N20 but sometimes will double up the 15N20 to change up the pattern.
 
Another reason to have the thicker stuff would be if someone wanted to use it by itself...
How much would an 80,000 pound order cost? :)
 
The price might be scary, but what about shipping? Yeeks!:eek:


...I wonder how many UPS flat rate boxes 80,000 pounds would take?:D
 
I spoke with one of the metallurgists at crucible on another (non blade related) matter. It seemed they were phasing out the steel I was interested in experimenting with for rifle barrels. I asked what the minimum order for a custom melt was, and he had no trouble sputing off 45000 lbs without hesitation...

That's an AWFUL LOT of steel!

I passed.
 
There are outfits around for custom steel melts in "small" quantities. i remember one mention years ago of one ton, but they later upped their batch size. Here's one such place that you could contact:

http://www.steelforge.com/
 
fitzo said:
There are outfits around for custom steel melts in "small" quantities. i remember one mention years ago of one ton, but they later upped their batch size. Here's one such place that you could contact:

http://www.steelforge.com/
Click to expand...

Hmmm. They say:
All Metals & Forge, LLC can now supply Air or Vacuum Melted Designer Alloys™ in the below listed material families, in quantities as small as 250 lbs. (120 kgs.)
Click to expand...

Shows promise, yes? Thanks, Mike. :)
 
sunfishman said:
This looks interesting.

Phillip, you need to check into this and let use know:)
Click to expand...

I will! I want to do my homework and get others opinions about the composition before I request a quote. I'm starting to get excited though.

Please, if anyone sees anything wrong with my "recipe", I want your input.
 
Man, that would be something I may be able to handle, 250#'s. Even that, is a lot of knives.
 
Hey Guy's,

Thought I'd chime in. Just to give you the run down on this stuff. I was able to get the 1084 because some other company or companies placed orders for the same thing I was looking for. There order was a min. 100,000#(50 ton)(ouch!). Apparently there aren't a lot of Steel Mills that say no to an extra 10,000# in a crucible that's already cooking up 50tons. I was fortunate in that the day I ordered it there was already a melt scheduled for mid Sept. and there was enough room in the pot for mine.

The horror of doing something like this is you never quite know what you're exactly going to end up with. If you look at the specs. on the 1084 you'll see that the Carb. is .89.(Something most of us don't mind, it gives us more to burn off during that one more heat!!).

Phil, I think you've got a great formula. I'm with Don on the Mang. but if you want a thru hardening steel you would have a longer nose curve and, perhaps, not as distict a hamon.

As far as small lots are concerned, a few years ago Jerry Fisk and a bunch of ABS guys were talking about getting a 10,000lbs. custom smelt to the tune of $8.00- $10.00 a lbs. and that was a while ago.

MEANWHILE ....... COME ONE COME ALL! I GOT 1/4" 1084 IN 1" AND 11/2" AT LESS THAN 1/2 THAT $$ PER LBS.(my little plug :) )


Aldo
 
Aldo Bruno said:
Hey Guy's,

Phil, I think you've got a great formula. I'm with Don on the Mang. but if you want a thru hardening steel you would have a longer nose curve and, perhaps, not as distict a hamon.
Click to expand...

I don't really care if it will make a hamon or not...

As far as small lots are concerned, a few years ago Jerry Fisk and a bunch of ABS guys were talking about getting a 10,000lbs. custom smelt to the tune of $8.00- $10.00 a lbs. and that was a while ago.
Click to expand...

I take it they had some setbacks? What kind of steel were they interested in?

MEANWHILE ....... COME ONE COME ALL! I GOT 1/4" 1084 IN 1" AND 11/2" AT LESS THAN 1/2 THAT $$ PER LBS.(my little plug :) )


Aldo
Click to expand...


:D And I just got my order this afternoon. I can't wait to try it out. I already have two billets tack welded. I just wish I had some of "my" steel to mix it with. :D
 
I think the only setback was that they couldn't decide on a shape. Ounce the rolling starts it doesn't stop until the whole billet is completely rolled out. The billet I ordered probably weighed 11,000#.The rolling house operator was able to squeeze 10,670 out of it. One billet, one shape.The other prob.was cost( of course).

Don't really remember what type of steel they were looking for.Guess it would be kind of hard to pick 1 formula that covers all.

Hope you enjoy the steel you got.(It's YOURS now!)

Aldo
 
Aldo Bruno said:
Hope you enjoy the steel you got.(It's YOURS now!)

Aldo
Click to expand...


I was referring to the recipe I came up with in my first post. :)
I think it would be the perfect steel to mix with the 1084, because I like the idea of a hypereutectoid damascus.

Well, if nobody can think of anything wrong with my formula, I'll go ahead and submit a quote.
Before I do, it would be nice to make a decision between the moly or manganese for making it deep hardening. I'm not a metallurgist, but I know there's one here... Mete? Do you have anything to add? :)
 
I think you have a nice mix there, except for the carbon. I think it is a little high. you may have problems with cementite forming on the grain boundaries, and at that level, you will have all plate martensite, which may be a little brittle. I don't think you would want to go much higher than .90% C

IIRC, L6 with .75C is practically at the euctoid point, since the nickle will not form carbides, there is actually less iron to mix the carbon with. The Cr and Mo, if they were to form Cr3C and Mo3C, would only lower the available carbon by about .02-.03% Once the Ni is figured in, the iron/carbon ratio is roughly equivalent to a .80 C steel.

If I am off, I hope someone can point it out.

Ken Nelson
 
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