Pros & Cons of buying USA Made

For the record, James was civil and I resorted to name-calling and sarcasm at one point.

The debate over trading is a very expansive issue. It covers a large range of beliefs. Thoughts over how people should be allowed to interact with each other. Opinions over how much benefit should be derived by the involved parties during such transactions. Ideas regarding whether certain groups are people should be allowed to act for or against their interests.

I tend to take Julian Simon's sense of such things:

Our actions may cause or uncover problems, but when left with enough freedom to solve these problems, we usually end up even better off than we were before our problems had developed.

Easyrider made a good example of it by mentioning how the automakers in the US responded to the influx of Japanese-made cars.

And that's about as far as I can go without acting poorly again.
 
Originally posted by thombrogan
For the record, James was civil and I resorted to name-calling and sarcasm at one point.
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So you were the trouble maker. That figures. :p :D Sometimes people get very passionate about this country and what is the best course of action. As long as everyone is willing to appologize and be friends again then no harm is done. :D
 
Honestly I couldn't care less where it is made as long as the quality keeps up.
I've good and bad consumer products coming out of various countries that people shun away. The problem is at the QC, not at the name of the piece of land that the item is made.
 
Quality is the way to success, regardless of where it's coming from.
Quality products can come from any company no matter where it's located.

If the boss of that firm demands quality, he will probably get it. Consumers in general recognise quality straightaway. If the product is top-notch and the price is reasonable, you bet there will be a long queue.

Top notch stuff, quality products transcend borders and reach the most number of households worldwide.

All successful companies abide by this rule, and they don't and won't change this policy for obvious reasons.
 
I'm not from the US, so I don't have a patriotic feeling about this, but what matters to me is that the quality is good and consistent, and that the actual workers (wherever they are) are working under normal circumstances and earn a decent living.
Quality I can judge for myself, but the conditions of the workers not, so then I have to depend on the integrity of the company I'm buying from... So with Spyderco I'm pretty sure all is well.

Ted
 
It comes down to three things. One is simply family. Americans are my family. Given a choice I would prefer to buy from family. If you don't feel that way, don't be suprised when you lose your job due to foriegn competition or become old w/o anyone to care for you. Some businessmen take pride in supplying fair jobs and decent liveliehoods to their employees, who also happen to be neighbors, fellow citizens, members of the American family.

The second thing is the reason why foriegn goods cheaper. Is it to keep the price the same for the American consumer, but pocket 4 times the profit (e.g. compact discs)? Is it due to poor environmental regulations leading to rampant pollution (e.g. pesticide production)? Is it due to young children sewing soccer balls? Is it due to young women kept like slaves in barracks working 6 days a week, 12 hour days, with no time to enjoy life (e.g. cheap asian toyes and novelties)? These are all good reasons not to buy foriegn products. This is not "fair" competetion. By purchasing products made in these ways you are participating in evil. It's complex, and sometimes things change when there is true competition, that's why a Honda Civic is now made in America.

The final thing is the trade deficit. America needs to make things the world wants in the same amount as America buys the worlds products.
 
Brownshoe,

How did you arrive at your conclusion?

What if you have family in Japan, East Timor, or Finnland? Would you be at risk for losing your job to non-family members if you weren't buying goods from those lands, too?

When does pesticide production become rampant? How does rampant pesticide production lower the price of non-pesticidal consumer goods?

Does your argument also how sway over produce? Is it wrong to provide your family with fresh fruits and vegetables in the wintertime because they'd have to be shipped from the southern hemisphere?

What if an American automaker opens up a side business that manufactures pesticides in a rampant manner? Will I be able to buy an American car for a lower price?
 
Is it wrong to provide your family with fresh fruits and vegetables in the wintertime because they'd have to be shipped from the southern hemisphere?
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If I know it I will never buy this produce.My family and I had to go get the Hepititus(SP?) shot because of those Mexican green onions.
 
Buying decisions for me generally concern quality and price only. Where or who manufactured it, doesn't enter the picture. I like my Japanese pocketknife, my Brazillian machete, my Mexican hotsauce, my Dominican jeans, etc. All of which were imported and sold by a US companies employing US workers.
 
Whenever buying a product I look at quality first (perceived or real),- and if it is an essential item, buy the best quality that I can afford - no mater where the product is made.

If it isn't an essential product, and I can't afford the quality I want (or need), I wait till I can afford it - again, where made is not factor in my buying decision.

Chuck
 
I like how some American and international companies have embarked on a two-pronged approach in their manufacturing strategy. That is, their top-of-the-line products are made in their home country and their economy line products are made elsewhere.

With this setup, a company's workers are provided meaningful jobs and given the opportunity to take pride in their output. Granted, the products manufactured at home have a high operating cost but this is offset by the savings of products manufactured outside of the country. Production, as such, could be balanced to create a win-win situation for everyone involved.

As a consumer, my preference is to buy American-made. However, on certain items I refuse to compromise quality vs. price or country of origin.
 
Not sure I understand you Mr. Brogan, probably because I wasn't clear in the first place.

I came to my conclusion about supporting American products through logic. If I don't buy from my neighbor, he'll lose his job and won't buy from me. If America imports more than it exports it upsets the economy and the world in hideous ways...e.g., the Middle East and oil. Americans are rich enough to pay a little more for products made in this country.

I support American made products in a proactive manner, not in a jingoistic protectionist way. If a product isn't available from America, such as foriegn produce, then there is no competition. Except perhaps from frozen vegetables. I do buy more frozen american vegetables rather than high priced winter foreign produce. If a product isn't available in America, such as Belgium truffles soaked in calvados, I buy them. However, I still buy most of my other choclates from my local choclatier.

I use the concept of family as being more than blood relations. I don't think America should be protectionist, but I do think Americans should be pro-active with our dollars. Being pro-active and supporting your community means buying the products made in your country, state and town. Maybe its weird, but I get a kick over buying local honey, vegetables, beef, pork, and chicken. I pay a little more for it, but I like supporting my community.

Some say they buy for quality and price. Please just pay a little attention to country of origin. Buy your product from a country that you support. I don't think Americans should ignore the evil practices of some foriegn communities and companies. I don't think anyone would buy a diamond if they knew the truth about the business.
Some of these communities and practices are supported by either American business concerns or our current government. Just because it's an American company making money from virtual slave labor doesn't make it right.
 
Mr. Glesser,
First off, let me thank you for opening this thread and soliticiting our opinion on the subject. This very attitude is what keeps Spyderco a top-class outfit, IMO.

I personally do not see a problem with a company going to foreign sources for parts of their knives, or even full assembly, provided there is no deception in that practice. If a knife is imported, I would prefer it be marked as such. That does not necessarily mean that I will or won't buy it; I just like to be an informed customer. I have bought knives from both your company, and the company that (I believe) has caused this debate due to their recent move to offshore suppliers for some of their line. I will continue to buy knives from both your companies, to the extent I am able. Both have good designs in both their on-shore and off-shore lines, and I will pick and buy based on the designs, not on their country of manufacture (up to a point). I will draw a line at buying anything from China (People's Republic thereof) if at all possible, regardless of design or quality.

Now, all that being said, I would very MUCH prefer to buy from a company that has all their products at least assembled in the U.S.A. That being nearly impossible nowadays, I do, and will continue to, strive to purchase knives that are "Made in U.S.A." and marked as such, to the extent possible, with this manufacture weighing in on the desirability of the knife. It just gives me a good feeling to purchase products that I know are helping support my fellow Americans, even if they cost more. A good example is a recent offering by BM in their Red line. Using similar materials to a knife produced by Camillus, the BM knife costs about $10 less than the Camillus knife on the internet. That being the case, I would likely buy the Camillus knife (actually a third one) before the BM offering.

Besides, the ParaMil eats them both up :D (albeit at a higher price :( , although that is understandable).
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
I came to my conclusion about supporting American products through logic. If I don't buy from my neighbor, he'll lose his job and won't buy from me.
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I can see that, but aren't both you and your neighbor able to sell your products and services to other customers, some of whom may not live in America? I know at least one retailer who sells American-made knives to a friend in Taiwan and have heard of another who sells to customers in Great Britain. And that Sal Glesser will anyone a nice, American-made Spyderco (or Taiwanese or Japanese, if you prefer) lest anyone fear going without. Some folks in Britain sell me tick-repellant that was made in America, so I know this international selling phenomenon isn't just for cutlery.

Originally posted by brownshoe
If America imports more than it exports it upsets the economy and the world in hideous ways...e.g., the Middle East and oil. Americans are rich enough to pay a little more for products made in this country.
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Might it also be argued that the governments of the USA and the UK decided that it was outside their scope of responsibility when American and British oil fields were nationalized in West Asian countries? For the USA, at least, concerns about the environmental impact of offshore drilling seem to have compounded this problem as have concerns about genetically-modified agricultural products (some of which were seeking to synthesize plastics and similar polymers within oil-rich plants, such as cotton and castor). In the case of petroleum, is it possible that a trade deficit is only precarious when we choose to make it that way?

You may also want to ask yourself what the actual danger from a trade deficit would be. I'm not entirely convinced that the doomsday scenarios I've been hearing about for the past 25 years (others may have heard them longer) could ever come to fruition under our current political climate or even ones with slightly more or less restrictions on trading.
 
I posted this on the original thread but thought I'd copy here too for those who haven't seen it.



It's getting really difficult in today's gloablized economy to determine what makes one product "American" and another not. In the January/February issue of AAA World (you know, the roadside assistance organization) there was a great article on this very topic.

The question was offered, "In an era of multinational corporations and global economic, is there any such thing as an American car?" Some interesting observations:

Chrysler PT Cruiser - "The PT Cruiser is not built in the U.S. by well-paid workers but in Mexico by relatively low-wage labor, and then imported into this country. And Chrysler, one of Detroit's so-called Big Three automakers, was bought out in 1998 by Daimler-Benz, makers of Mercedes-Benz. Add all that up and it could be argued that the PT Cruiser is more German or Mexican than American."

The Chrysler Crossfire - An American company and an American made car, right? "Despite its Chrysler badge, the Crossfire is built in Germany by DaimlerChrysler, a German company. The car's engine, suspension, and brakes are from Merceded-Benz. American workers don't earn money from its production, nor or the profits controlled by an American company."

Toyota Solara - gotta be a foreign car, right? "Depends. Developed in large part by Toyota's U.S.-based technical center and U.S.-based design studio, the Solara is built in the U.S. using components mostly made in the U.S. Profits are controlled by a Japanese company but Americans earn money from its production."

"Fords are built in Mexico and Canada and Toyotas and Hondas are built, respectively, in Kentucky and Ohio."

"Last year Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors imported components worth close to $20 billion in accumulated value from Mexico. The Big Three American automakers have more foreign made parts than the vehicles built by foreign automakers in U.S.-based assembly plants."

And it goes on and on and on...


I'll stick to my Cannondale road bike that I know is made in America. Ooops, that's just the frame. The components are from Shimano in Japan

Get's confusing doesn't it?

Art
 
Great thread and great info, thanx much.

Since the question of "quality" or "perceived quality" add to Art's comments of confusion, I would like to create more confusion, if I may.

It is very difficult, if not impossible to tell the quality of a steel blade by looking at it. Let's say you own a Delica with an AUS-6 blade. The AUS-6 is made by Aichi and the heat treat is specific including cryo. Performance is quite good for '65 carbon. Then you buy another knife with AUS-6 stamped on the blade, but the steel is not made by Aichi (AUS-6 is a mark of Aichi), but by a lesser quality foundry. Even the experienced knife person will assume equal performance, even thought the actual performance difference may be 30% off.

In the drive to lower prices and still "appear" to provide "quality", don't you think the drive is also there to purchase cheaper (lower quality) raw materials? Do you think the factories buying this steel are able to test?

Even raw materials these days come from everywhere.

sal
 
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
Even raw materials these days come from everywhere.
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Thanks for the added confusion. It brings up a related tangent:

Any and everything can be a natural resource for some product or process. It takes a human mind seeking to solve a problem to transform some heretofore worthless material into a natural resource. Oil used to be a nuisance that ruined crops in places like Texas and Pennsylvania. Now it's used to fuel or fabricate countless processes and products. Nitrogen is the most abundant gas in the Earth's atmosphere. Now it's a secret ingredient in newer knives stamped "Golden, Colorado USA Earth" (shh! don't tell!).

Wherever there's a mind at work that sees the universe as the building blocks of its values, there are raw materials just waiting to become natural resources.

Fans of human ingenuity and newcomers to economics and government policy will find a wealth of inspiring examples in the late Julian L. Simon's "The Ultimate Resource 2".
 
For all those of you who insist on buying from a certain country, realize the fact that a country is a piece of land with an arbitrary boundary and a name on it. When you make something, and if you don't have that material, you have to get the material ouside that boundary. Then you'll end up talking about percentages of Made in X (wherever X may be), and then you may realize, hey these resource can move. How can you define American Granite from say Mexican Granite, or Syberian Granite? They all came from cool magma that circulates under the earths crust. How about that glass of water (or any drink for that matter), and where did the water component came from? China? Pakistan? Mongolia? Indonesia? Brazil? UK? Poland? You can't define that either.
If you so insist on buying from a certain country, I like to see you find a way to find out where did the water came from, and if you can't find out, don't drink it.
 
If the water is bottled in China or somewhere, I won't drink it or use it. What you're talking about is irrelevant. It doesn't matter where the root source of something is if that something is essentially free. If the water originated in Poland, China, whatever, I couldn't care less. If I'm paying someone in China to give it to me, I do care. It is not so much where the componenets come from; it IS where my money is going that concerns me!
 
As far as going for lower cost be still have precieved quality,look at Pizza Hut.I hate their food now but many younger people I know think it is fine.Does anyone else remember what a pizza was like from pizza hut back about 15 years ago compared to today.Ture the prize of them is the smae or lower than 15-20 years ago but if its not worth eating what good is the low price.
As far as the whole impoted items thing goes,if I have a choise between to products that are simalar in design and quality one made here and one made there I will pick the one made here.
If you don't think jobs going over seas affects you them you are blind.It has affected me and some co workers and Spyderco for that matter.I work at Pepsi loading trucks.Several factories on some of our routes shut down and transfered over seas.Those people were jobless alot still are.One of the frist things a jobless person stops buying is soft drinks.Those route sales went down,in some cases 1/2 what thay were the year before.
So truck does not sell as much,drivers don't make as much.loaders don't load as much,loaders don't get their hours in and don't make as much thus loader "ME" don't buy as many Spydercos,Spyderco don't make as much.
 
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