Pros & Cons of buying USA Made

Also affect me with lower prices for goods which have a quality that I can accept for the price point. Sometimes with better quality than what was being produced in the USA. Sometimes with less. Almost always with better quality than what the quality would be if the same amount of $ went into the product here in the USA. It's about the almighty $.
 
Originally posted by u812
As far as going for lower cost be still have precieved quality,look at Pizza Hut.I hate their food now but many younger people I know think it is fine.Does anyone else remember what a pizza was like from pizza hut back about 15 years ago compared to today.
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When I was a kid Pizza Hut was a treat. Now I do not touch the stuff, it is nowhere near the quality it used to be.

This underscores the point for me. More and more products are trading quality components and manufacturing for fancy advertising, packaging, and gimmicks. A good, quality, desirable product _used_ to be the goal of a business. Now cheap crap in a flashy package seems to be the number one goal.

A recent thread on a certain (infamous) chain of discount stores covered the issue. Everyone is so concerned on saving a few pennies here and there that they do not look to the true value of the product they are buying. Only later do they sometimes realize that often you get what you pay for, and if a product must be prematurely replaced, that the long run economy does not exist.

This relates to this thread in terms of how manufacturers, and more importantly marketers, get the buying public to want their product. They spend more time and effort in flashy ad campaigns to generate interest, and ignore the product itself. And being able to cheaply mass produce products in countries like China enables this. A search on this forum alone will produce several threads on the problems with the ultra low production costs in China, and how it enables the sellers of knock-off knives to complete, and sometimes drive the original designer or maker out of the market. This is not truly compeition however, as the public does not receive equivalent goods and services in the end. They get lower costs, but must also lower their expectations.

I will again state however, that I do own some of Spyderco's knives of Japanese manufacture however. In these cases, the knives were not purchased based on price, but on design and quality. My Viele is one of my favorites, and it is very well made. It was not cheap in it's day however, so the concept of a "cheap import" does not apply here.

Had the Viele been made in China however, I highly doubt it would be the same desireable tool.
 
Each time I shop for a product, I will consider its origin as a factor. All else being equal, I will prefer to purchase a product made in the USA. I am willing to pay a somewhat higher price for equal quality, and quite often I pay much more for higher quality. I love my Diamond Gusset jeans, which are made in the USA, but are better than any imported jeans I have ever found. Therefore, I win and the USA worker wins, even though the price is higher. Filson clothing is of extremely high quality, and is, IMHO, worth the high prices because it lasts a LONG time. Once again, I and the USA workers win. I will also try to purchase from a local dealer, if he stocks or can obtain what I need for a reasonable price. Sometimes this means I pay more, but that is OK. I like Eagle Industries nylon gear because it is made in USA and is sold by a local dealer. I can examine the construction and see the superior workmanship and materials when compared to a very big-name company's products which are made in other countries. BTW, I like pizza made by a local Greek restaurant, which should make Pizza Hut bow its head in shame. My three Spyderco Ronins are made in Japan, but that is OK too. It is a unique item and is done very well. If Japan's economy collapses, the USA economy will be adversely affected, because many US companies will lose a large part of their market. It is a world economy. I could write a book, but will stop now. ;)
 
I would like to share some thoughts on the "percieved quality" issue. I am still seeing a slow deterioration of the "actual" quality which is being replaced by "perceived" quality. This is a "theorectical scenario". Hope I don't piss anybody off, if so, my apologies. It is just a dialectic.

Big box company ABC contacts lantern company XYZ and says, "you make this great lantern model "J" that is a proven top of the line design for lanterns".

"We understand that your best price to customers is $14.18. We would like to purchase 4 million dollars of your model "J" lantern, but we need to have it for a price of $10.12. We're a discount house and keeping prices low is very important. The Purchase order accompanies this letter".

Do you think that Lantern company XYZ is going to turn down the $4,000,000 order? despite the fact that they cannot build it for that price?"

Do you think that all of XYZ's vendors are going to lose money selling parts and materials to XYZ company? so XYZ company can make a profit on ABC company?

Somebody is going to have to cut corners (lower quality) somewhere to meet the order. Is the steel a lower grade or a tad thinner? Is the alluminum a little less refined? Is the glass tempered a tiny bit less or maybe a little thinner, or even a lower quality glass?

Think about it. Can you really lower prices drastically without affecting quality? Yeah, sure.

Well it's "almost" like this....
Pretty close to the same...
The customer really can't tell the difference...
It's really a good deal "for the price"...
It does the same job...
Not quite as good...

All the many ways of saying, "yeah we're making it cheaper so we can make more profit and still make it look like you'r getting the same quality".

hmmmmm.

IMO, The price is being driven down incrementally by the Low price tradesmen, (who really don't know or care about quality), the quality is being driven down incrementally, the manufacturers lose and the ELUs lose.

sal
 
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
"We understand that your best price to customers is $14.18. We would like to purchase 4 million dollars of your model "J" lantern, but we need to have it for a price of $10.12. We're a discount house and keeping prices low is very important. The Purchase order accompanies this letter".

Do you think that Lantern company XYZ is going to turn down the $4,000,000 order? despite the fact that they cannot build it for that price?"

Do you think that all of XYZ's vendors are going to lose money selling parts and materials to XYZ company? so XYZ company can make a profit on ABC company?
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Which is why I never liked "Lantern-Mart". These tactics eventually ruin both the product and the maker. Look up threads on Vlassic Pickles and Wal-Mart. First they killed a good product - the company filed for bankruptcy later.

All the many ways of saying, "yeah we're making it cheaper so we can make more profit and still make it look like you'r getting the same quality".

hmmmmm.

IMO, The price is being driven down incrementally by the Low price tradesmen, (who really don't know or care about quality), the quality is being driven down incrementally, the manufacturers lose and the ELUs lose.
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Bingo ("don't know or care about quality") !!!

In the end, everybody loses, except the CEO of "Lantern-Mart". Enough incremental steps in the quality lowering adds up to a piece of junk (in a flashy box). The average consumer is addicted to being able to purchase large numbers of "toys" at low prices, and does not care about quality until their toys fail. Then they gripe. Others do not care until their tool fails, and they get hurt. Price is king - quality is a distant last.
 
To add one more thing...

My definition of "preceived quality" is the subjective concept of how well made an item is. If in my hand it feels solid, sturdy, and operates smoothly, it seems to be quality made. If the metallurgy is off, I might not know until it breaks.

Actual quality determination might require purchase and use. Of course, some of the imported stuff only takes a single look for the perception to be very negative. :barf:
 
You can produce things cheaper with the same quality. This is what quality improvement is all about...it works. However, quality improvement is more difficult than cost cutting through shaving quality. Very few businesses understand the principles and methodology of good quality improvement...for example, listen to and respect your lowest level worker, they know where the real waste lies.

What's more difficult is business expansion and maintaining quality. This can result in failure even when there are no cost cutting measures needed, and the "law" of economies of scale indicate that you should be making more money. When you expand a business things like inspection, testing, product release and training that were easy in a small shop, become a lot more challenging.
 
I loved you post, Sal. You really hit the nail on the head. That’s why I try never to shop at Lantern-Mart. I live in a rural area with a Lantern-Mart as the only place to shop for anything. I travel an hour into civilization so I can shop at real businesses that give a darn about their product.

I’d much rather come home with one good quality purchase than with bags full of stuff I never would have purchased 20 years ago. Think about it the next time you go to Lantern-Mart. “If somebody offered me this quality 20 years ago, would I have even thought once about buying it?” You may not have to save up to buy things anymore, but you’ll be replacing them every week for the rest of your life.

My wife and I also judge what it would take to make things ourselves. There’s a whole lot of stuff at Lantern-Mart that could be produced at home, at a much higher level of quality, for the same price and a little time.

It seems that we’ve become a consumable society in the US. We regard everything as temporary and easily replaceable. That’s just wrong. I’d rather have stuff that will stand the test of time, and hand them down to my grandchildren when I die. My bet is that we’ll learn our lesson in three or four generations, when we can look back and see that we having nothing left of our grandparents lives, other than some broken pieces of plastic and poorly developed photos.
 
Many people equate price with quality. They are not the same thing. In a society of perceptions, it is easy to sell a product with a high price and say the quality is higher, too (even though it may not be).

I think Spyderco knives are an example of quality. The product you buy from Spyderco includes the excellent warranty. It includes the great designs. This is all in addition to the knife itself.

"Lantern-Mart" as we are calling it appeals to the lowest common denominator. I use it, rarely, for products that I feel are adequate for my needs at a low price (for example, SD cards for my Palm). It has its place. Most of the time I don't go there just because of the crowds.

As Buzzbait said, we live in a disposable society. What will we leave the generations that follow us?

Another example of quality has to do with cars. Overall, I think that the quality of cars worldwide has improved because of global competition. I can remember the cars of 30 - 40 years ago, regardless of country of manufacture, and in many ways they were not of the quality of what we have today. It is not unusual to be able to keep a car for many 100s of thousands of miles with little maintenance. Try that with the cars of yesteryear. All the result of global competition.

I enjoy my Spyderco knives made in Seki Japan. I also look forward to getting a Military made in Golden very soon. I am sure the quality will be the same - because Spyderco sells quality (again part of the product you buy).

Dean
 
The 'lanterns' that I get from 'lantern-mart' have always been as good as most 'lanterns' that are available at the the mom and pop 'lantern store' often times they are even the exact same 'lantern', just alot cheaper.

Seriously except for stuff like belts, boots, steaks, tires, batteries, and some other things, I find Wal-Mart a great place to buy most things at. There own brand of soap washes clothes and dishes just fine, and the bottled watter is second only to Coca Cola's Dasani (and alot cheaper). Yeah, you can't buy a Remington 870 Police Magnum or a Spyderco Civillian there. But it's the best place in town to buy a Ruger 10/22 or a Schrade Sharpfinger. They hire more people and pay more than the local retail and grocery stores. Their prices are great too. Not everyone has champagne tastes with matching champagne budgets.
 
Good thread. Quality is a complex topic, and the posts so far are very interesting to read. A couple of thoughts:

On quality -- Many businesses target a particular customer segment. If the business caters to well-informed, quality-minded individuals, it will produce quality products at higher prices. The marketing channel will be specialty stores or independent dealers.

It is foolish for this business to try to sell to discount retailers. Discount customers may be more interested in price than quality. If the business compromises product quality to achieve a lower break-even price, it alienates its core up-scale customer segment, damages its reputation, and incurs other costs, including increased rework and customer service costs.

Million-dollar contracts from discount retailers may be tempting, but over time the quality producer that serves its customer segment well should be just as prosperous (or more prosperous) than low-end bargain manufacturers who fight for large contracts with razor-thin profit margins.
 
People who don't always buy high end are not necessarily ill-informed or not mindful of quality. They just like to keep more of their greenbacks or get the most for them. They don't get any utility for having something prettier or that lasts a little longer or that does the job a little better for the price at which those things are being offered.
 
Well. There ain't. :)

If country A can make widgets more efficiently than country B, and country B can make sprockets more efficiently than country B, wouldn't it make the most sense for country B to meet both countries' sprocket needs and country A to meet both countries' widget needs? That way, everyone gets more of both for a lower price.

The US has its share of businesses that aren't found nearly as much elsewhere. We're just specialized.
 
Thanks for hosting the topic, Sal, I should check in here more often to participate in intelligent and civil discussion.

I can sum up my position on purchasing foreign vs. domestically produced goods by paraphrasing the late William Claude Dukenfield; All things being equal, I’d rather buy things made in Philadelphia.

As far as the erosion of the acceptable level of quality in our society goes, I think it is another indicator of the widening gap between rich and poor and the shrinking purchasing power of the middle class. I can’t look down my nose at a single mother trying to feed and clothe her family and make her hard earned dollars go as far as they need to; I was one of those kids thirty years ago, and I honestly don’t know how my mother did it. I think I’ll give her a call right now.
 
I personally look for the product that is better made, regardless of it's country of origin. Japan is capable of making a blade that seems every bit as good as a USA made version. I guess this is why Spyderco has many of their models made over there. However, if both products are of equal quality, I will purchase the USA made knife. I think it would be a big mistake if US knife companies moved all production overseas.
 
Originally posted by thombrogan
Easyrider,

Don't let any of us find out you've been calling James' mom, you bad, bad, man.
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Shhhhhhh! I don't want anyone else to find out! :rolleyes: :p
 
I once favored foreign imports when the quality of American-made goods had fallen so low that there was a desperate need to do something about the problem. However, things have now gone too far. Too many people are unemployed as factories have moved out of the U.S.

But what is happening today is not the result of consumers trying to find better quality products. It is the result of businesses who could care less if Americans have jobs, and are seeking cheap labor at all costs. They are doing their best to turn the United States into a Third World country.

We also have to realize that outsourcing is not the only cause of unemployment. Businesses also "insource", which is bringing in foreign workers to replace Americans. This has devasted the IT profession, for example. In 2001, nine out of ten new IT jobs went to H1B Visa immigrants. This was while massive numbers of American IT workers were being laid off. Here in Atlanta two summers ago, Coca-Cola laid off more than a thousand IT workers. Now, I am told by a neighbor who is a Coke employee, most of those laid off have been replaced by H1B immigrants.

Of course, a great many blue collar workers suffered a similar fate beginning in the 1980's, as they were replaced with illegal immigrant workers. My house was built in America, but it wasn't built by Americans. And if you think you are helping Americans by buying one of the few brands of blue jeans still made in the U.S., think again. I am told those textile factories are staffed with illegal immigrant workers.

Yes, it is good to buy "Made in America" products, but don't assume that alone will help Americans find jobs. What we need is "Made in America - By Americans" products.
 
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