Mixed PSA: New PayPal policy regading returns and refunds!

Casinostocks said:
^ not an over-reaction vis a vis the knife hobby as the rate of returns, particularly in our own Exchange in here happens to be extremely low because of the community based nature of this Site. However the squeeze factor is real and it is weasel-like way of improving the bottom-line as opposed to raising the cost of transaction processing. Why do I deem it as weasel-like? Because this is not industry standard as they claim in their email, a snippet of which I posted.

I do understand, appreciate and have experienced, as a buyer, the malpractice of sh*tty sellers. There are valid points in there not to be trifled with. That said, also there isa factor in there that affects the good and the conscious sellers:

Most people just don't off'ing like to read any more! Most platforms have shifted to mobile devices and most folks look at titles and decide to purchase. Again, the following case does not apply to our hobby here but it is still a case study which is actual and not dramatization:

Email from a potential customer: will this part fit my car which is Model Year XXX, blah blah...

Me: Hi, sorry it will not. Please note the compatibility chart and also the description for fitment. Thank you.

Another email, same guy: OK, I read but are you absolutely sure? The dealer price is 3 x as much as I want to save good $.

Me: No, I am sorry it really will not fit. I am sure of that.

Order rings 10 minutes later with the comment: I think that I can make it fit, please send :confused:

Me: I am sorry, it will not fit. I am offering free shipping and free shipping back. It will not fit and I want to cancel this transaction based on mutual agreement.

Email: Please do not cancel and ship. If doesn't fit, I'll sell it or throw it away. My buddy says it fits!

A week later email from eBay: Item sold not as described! Automatic return approved!

Then you will have to get on the phone to eBay for an actual human to review the presented material to consider for ruling in your favor which is a waste of time but according to eBay when you accept returns, YOU MUST ACCEPT RETURNS. In such case with Paypal's new policy, a seller like me will be out of an additional $15 with no recourse. Of course, you can always refuse the same at the outset risk the potential of receiving a negative feedback and then call eBay again to argue your case to have it removed but then there is that time you spend on the phone.

There are sh*t sellers and there are sh*t buyers. It's a cost of doing business online but it pisses me off when more unnecessary costs are reflected to me. If you ask me as to why I even do business on eBay, the answer is because as FUDGED UP as eBay is and their whole business model is becoming so antiquated, their eBay Motors / Parts & Accessories is still the 800 lb. gorilla that no one else, even Amazon has managed to replicate! eBay & PayPal will eventually decouple in 2021-2022 and as of now, eBay refunds cancelled transactions due to returns, voids, etc... But I have a sneaky suspicion that they will also follow suit.

GB&U is a platform for meltdown and rants too, yes? OK, rant over ;)
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The problem you are complaining about has nothing to do with selling here and is in fact an issue you have with running your business on ebay.

Don't like the policies of the platform you are selling on? Don't sell there. Either that or suck it up. We have different policies here.

I don't necessarily like it either, but for this community, there are pluses and minus for both buyers and sellers.

It's worth being aware of but to be so one sided on this shows bias.
 
^ yup, I have no other choice but to suck it up in my mainline business. Very true and the fact that PayPal made such a huge (IMHO) decision will have a negative net affect for someone like me. Where you and I disagree and will most likely always disagree, since we seem to be wired differently, although I appreciate your contribution in my thread as mainly playing the devil's advocate by proposing another side of the debate, is in the impact of this policy even in here. You seem to believe that it will be beneficial as it will compel sellers to become better sellers whereas I firmly believe that it will encourage more of the practice which we both seem to discourage (F&F).
 
Casinostocks said:
^ yup, I have no other choice but to suck it up in my mainline business. Very true and the fact that PayPal made such a huge (IMHO) decision will have a negative net affect for someone like me. Where you and I disagree and will most likely always disagree, since we seem to be wired differently, although I appreciate your contribution in my thread as mainly playing the devil's advocate by proposing another side of the debate, is in the impact of this policy even in here. You seem to believe that it will be beneficial as it will compel sellers to become better sellers whereas I firmly believe that it will encourage more of the practice which we both seem to discourage (F&F).
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Oh then let's take that example a step further!

We discourage F&F left and right. Folks who use it have made their own bed. Not knowing better is no excuse. The rules here are quite clear on the subject. Are people that don't read rules and use F&F the type of people respectable members here would deal with? Nope. Let the folks who want to skate PayPal rules get what they deserve, buyer or seller.

Here we have a myriad of ways to conduct legitimate monetary transactions. And unlike ebay, we have recourse through the community.

I never said this will be beneficial. In fact I said I don't like it. I did say it will have pros and cons for both buyers and sellers. This issue isn't black and white. Nor will the sky fall here on the exchange. Let's see how it plays before calling PayPal names. After all, they are trying to run a business just like you.

I guess this is my main point in responding to you. Seems you are projecting the negative impact this PayPal policy change will have for your ebay business on to the exchange in our community. Ebay and our exchange are vastly different. Your example above is a perfect example.
 
You may be misinterpreting my strong dislike of this policy and starting a thread about it in here, as more of a whine and if so, then so be it. Indeed, this community based Site is not eBay but I am not the first person who has made cross correlated threads and posts about the two entities, something which I have gathered for the Moderators to allow if posts are informative to the benefit of the community because in one form or another, they relate to online eCommerce.

Yes we will have to wait and see about the affects and the repercussions of this policy but having conducted thousands more online transactions than lets say you, I can tell you that I absolutely see this as a squeeze, an atrocious and egregious policy to be adapted soon by PP and contrary to their claim that this is industry standard, the claim is simply false and disingenuous. I don't believe that I am name-calling PayPal just stating my resentment of what they are going to implement. While we are at it, their 180 days return policy was another "beauty" but the sky did not fall either! Did I like it? Heck no! Did I survive it, so far so good.
 
Casinostocks said:
I absolutely see this as a squeeze, an atrocious and egregious policy to be adapted soon by PP and contrary to their claim that this is industry standard, the claim is simply false and disingenuous. I don't believe that I am name-calling PayPal just stating my resentment of what they are going to implement. While we are at it, their 180 days return policy was another "beauty" but the sky did not fall either! Did I like it? Heck no! Did I survive it, so far so good.
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Yes, I abhor it when a company says something false and expects you to believe it. It happens all the time and in so many ways. (Better to make a change and say "we are greedy" or "losing money on scammers," or say nothing, than to try to pass it off as "everybody is doing it." It's all marketing, messages, bottom line, and hoping everyone is stupid and distracted enough to comply.

(One I often see is health-"care" --when they obviously don't give a crap!)
 
This is OT but I am going to write a bit about in here just for anecdotal purposes and also to show how when a huge Co like eBay suffers from self-inflicted dumbassery, they project their misfortunes onto the little guy by squeezing the last drop of juice outta their better type of sellers:

There was a time when your account was in great standing order and based on high DSRs (Detailed Seller Ratings) you'd receive a 20% "discount" on your selling fees as a credit reflecting in your monthly bill. The as their revenues started to drop because of them chasing out sellers to other newer selling platforms, they had to somehow compensate to fool their shareholders.

So the 20% went down to 10% and the cash back dividend which they used to issue based on purchases on eBay stopped (most sellers were also buyers) the same way that Paypal also stopped the cash back or put large restrictions on it as opposed to other type of credit cards. The for eBay to compete with Amazon, the rating system changed to "sellers must ship for free" if they want to be in the higher seller tier and then later on that changed to: "sellers must offer free returns too" to stay in our good graces and then when you go through all that, eBay would drop your arse from top tier because you end up having too many returns!!!

Like Peter. H. had said, these type of draconian policies by and large affect the good sellers because sh*t sellers are just that, i.e, SH*T. When they get booted out, they just resurrect as something else; reputation and integrity is irrelevant to them. If as a good seller you just decide one day that enough is enough and you have had it with the kinda hoops you are forced to jump through and then elect to discontinue all free shipping, free returns and all that, do you wanna know what happens? Your merchandise will take the least priority in the searches list and at times, the algorithm restricts the searches so that yours won't even show!

I wish I was smart enough to build a site to compete with them and then sell it to them for billions, but alas I'm not! OT over.
 
Casinostocks said:
You may be misinterpreting my strong dislike of this policy and starting a thread about it in here, as more of a whine and if so, then so be it. Indeed, this community based Site is not eBay but I am not the first person who has made cross correlated threads and posts about the two entities, something which I have gathered for the Moderators to allow if posts are informative to the benefit of the community because in one form or another, they relate to online eCommerce.

Yes we will have to wait and see about the affects and the repercussions of this policy but having conducted thousands more online transactions than lets say you, I can tell you that I absolutely see this as a squeeze, an atrocious and egregious policy to be adapted soon by PP and contrary to their claim that this is industry standard, the claim is simply false and disingenuous. I don't believe that I am name-calling PayPal just stating my resentment of what they are going to implement. While we are at it, their 180 days return policy was another "beauty" but the sky did not fall either! Did I like it? Heck no! Did I survive it, so far so good.
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You are admittedly financially impacted by this policy change, although outside of this exchange community or knives in general. You run a business in an online selling community that has vastly different rules than here. The example you cited above would be easily avoided here. We can choose who we sell to and this is not a place for individuals to do business (unless with the right membership). I am sympathetic that you are not allowed to sell to who you want with your ebay business and I understand how this new PayPal policy could impact your ebay business.

I don't think I'm "whining". I'm having a discussion about a financial institution's policy change as it relates to the exchange community here. I think the impact will be near zero provided people follow the rules, guidelines, and use common sense.

I'm just guessing but I bet this new policy is being inacted by PayPal because of shitty sellers, ebay or otherwise. Is it a cash grab squeeze? Maybe. I'd likely think that too if my business was tied to ebay.
 
Casinostocks said:
This is OT but I am going to write a bit about in here just for anecdotal purposes and also to show how when a huge Co like eBay suffers from self-inflicted dumbassery, they project their misfortunes onto the little guy by squeezing the last drop of juice outta their better type of sellers:

There was a time when your account was in great standing order and based on high DSRs (Detailed Seller Ratings) you'd receive a 20% "discount" on your selling fees as a credit reflecting in your monthly bill. The as their revenues started to drop because of them chasing out sellers to other newer selling platforms, they had to somehow compensate to fool their shareholders.

So the 20% went down to 10% and the cash back dividend which they used to issue based on purchases on eBay stopped (most sellers were also buyers) the same way that Paypal also stopped the cash back or put large restrictions on it as opposed to other type of credit cards. The for eBay to compete with Amazon, the rating system changed to "sellers must ship for free" if they want to be in the higher seller tier and then later on that changed to: "sellers must offer free returns too" to stay in our good graces and then when you go through all that, eBay would drop your arse from top tier because you end up having too many returns!!!

Like Peter. H. had said, these type of draconian policies by and large affect the good sellers because sh*t sellers are just that, i.e, SH*T. When they get booted out, they just resurrect as something else; reputation and integrity is irrelevant to them. If as a good seller you just decide one day that enough is enough and you have had it with the kinda hoops you are forced to jump through and then elect to discontinue all free shipping, free returns and all that, do you wanna know what happens? Your merchandise will take the least priority in the searches list and at times, the algorithm restricts the searches so that yours won't even show!

I wish I was smart enough to build a site to compete with them and then sell it to them for billions, but alas I'm not! OT over.
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So this really is all about ebay....
 
Oh Cray, there is no doubt about that (what I wrote in post number 27)! eBay's golden days are definitely behind it and I see it as a dinosaur community waiting to be hit by an asteroid! Their smartest move was to buy PP and then reap it all up by selling PP. In the interim and in between, they also bought a whole bevy of crappola!
 
I appreciate the heads up. I don't do a lot of selling, and I have only refunded money a couple times, but it's nice to know so that I am not caught off-guard in the future.
 
Casinostocks said:
Oh Cray, there is no doubt about that (what I wrote in post number 27)! eBay's golden days are definitely behind it and I see it as a dinosaur community waiting to be hit by an asteroid! Their smartest move was to buy PP and then reap it all up by selling PP. In the interim and in between, they also bought a whole bevy of crappola!
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Well, my advice would be to stop selling there. You have a choice.
 
Casinostocks said:
Just the anecdotes. Anyway, screw it. I'm out on a hunt for a Shaman in Cru-Carta. Catch u later.
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Not really. On Ebay, you have very little say in who you sell to. This is a main problem in your example. This problem doesn't exist here. We can sell to who ever we want and take payment or trade in whatever way we want.

Your big problem is with ebay. This smaller problem exists with PayPal. All of this can be avoided on the exchange here.

Good luck with your search. Use PayPal goods.
 
craytab said:
Well, my advice would be to stop selling there. You have a choice.
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Naaah, they’re still of more use to me than the reverse so the advantage is still in my favor albeit with diminishing returns.

Back on topic: we shall wait and see what happens with this one as the policy goes into effect. Good to see you adding your takes.
 
Casinostocks said:
The for eBay to compete with Amazon, the rating system changed to "sellers must ship for free" if they want to be in the higher seller tier and then later on that changed to: "sellers must offer free returns too" to stay in our good graces and then when you go through all that, eBay would drop your arse from top tier because you end up having too many returns!!!

...you are forced to jump through and then elect to discontinue all free shipping, free returns and all that, do you wanna know what happens? Your merchandise will take the least priority in the searches list and at times, the algorithm restricts the searches so that yours won't even show!
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So that explains things.

You sound like an experienced seller, and I hope you don't mind and OT question.

Have you (or anyone else) ever had someone demand a W-9 as a condition of sale? Would you comply? (This happened to me for the first time last week on an $85 item, and I said no.)
 
annr said:
So that explains things.

You sound like an experienced seller, and I hope you don't mind and OT question.

Have you (or anyone else) ever had someone demand a W-9 as a condition of sale? Would you comply? (This happened to me for the first time last week on an $85 item, and I said no.)
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Never in my case! I’ve been on eBay since 2001 and have almost 12K feedback and over 30K in individual transactions!
 
Casinostocks said:
Never in my case! I’ve been on eBay since 2001 and have almost 12K feedback and over 30K in individual transactions!
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Interesting, thanks, and they wanted to know if I accept a PO. Very weird. I half wondered if it were a scam. (I’m thinking: just click the button like everyone else and pay for it!)
 
Casinostocks said:
^ not an over-reaction vis a vis the knife hobby as the rate of returns, particularly in our own Exchange in here happens to be extremely low because of the community based nature of this Site. However the squeeze factor is real and it is weasel-like way of improving the bottom-line as opposed to raising the cost of transaction processing. Why do I deem it as weasel-like? Because this is not industry standard as they claim in their email, a snippet of which I posted.

I do understand, appreciate and have experienced, as a buyer, the malpractice of sh*tty sellers. There are valid points in there not to be trifled with. That said, also there isa factor in there that affects the good and the conscious sellers:

Most people just don't off'ing like to read any more! Most platforms have shifted to mobile devices and most folks look at titles and decide to purchase. Again, the following case does not apply to our hobby here but it is still a case study which is actual and not dramatization:

Email from a potential customer: will this part fit my car which is Model Year XXX, blah blah...

Me: Hi, sorry it will not. Please note the compatibility chart and also the description for fitment. Thank you.

Another email, same guy: OK, I read but are you absolutely sure? The dealer price is 3 x as much as I want to save good $.

Me: No, I am sorry it really will not fit. I am sure of that.

Order rings 10 minutes later with the comment: I think that I can make it fit, please send :confused:

Me: I am sorry, it will not fit. I am offering free shipping and free shipping back. It will not fit and I want to cancel this transaction based on mutual agreement.

Email: Please do not cancel and ship. If doesn't fit, I'll sell it or throw it away. My buddy says it fits!

A week later email from eBay: Item sold not as described! Automatic return approved!

Then you will have to get on the phone to eBay for an actual human to review the presented material to consider for ruling in your favor which is a waste of time but according to eBay when you accept returns, YOU MUST ACCEPT RETURNS. In such case with Paypal's new policy, a seller like me will be out of an additional $15 with no recourse. Of course, you can always refuse the same at the outset risk the potential of receiving a negative feedback and then call eBay again to argue your case to have it removed but then there is that time you spend on the phone.

There are sh*t sellers and there are sh*t buyers. It's a cost of doing business online but it pisses me off when more unnecessary costs are reflected to me. If you ask me as to why I even do business on eBay, the answer is because as FUDGED UP as eBay is and their whole business model is becoming so antiquated, their eBay Motors / Parts & Accessories is still the 800 lb. gorilla that no one else, even Amazon has managed to replicate! eBay & PayPal will eventually decouple in 2021-2022 and as of now, eBay refunds cancelled transactions due to returns, voids, etc... But I have a sneaky suspicion that they will also follow suit.

GB&U is a platform for meltdown and rants too, yes? OK, rant over ;)
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Your quote about the parts were so true but the problem there is that's the motor trade ,it's nuts. As a Tech for nearly 24 years , I've discovered there friend knows more than me;) , so why they ask me I'll never know . I often run people that annoy me now, I don't need the hassle.
Sorry you haven't that option.
 
Casinostocks Casinostocks It looks like e-bay is launching their own payment collection that is separate from paypal and they may not charge the initial fee for refunds. Might be worth looking into.
 
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