Push cutting paper with 36 grit stone?

I don't think your loose belt will work well because it can flex so much and is really made for straight razors which I believe they basically lay flat on the belt which wraps around to refine the edge. Not positive about that but I think most of us mount leather to a hard backing like a piece of wood. Maybe look into getting some leather and making a simple paddle strop.

I would imagine softer hair would also be harder to cut as it will want to bend out of the way instead of being stiff and giving the edge an opportunity to bite in and start the cut. Maybe try a slightly steeper angle to test on arm hair?
 
I have watched a bunch of cliffs videos back when I first started sharpening. Blew my mind what he is able to do with different stones and different steels. He also approaches sharpening from a more scientific view which I kinda thought interesting. This very video you are referring to actually got me to push my own limits with sharpening. At the time I had the norton waterstones. 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000 grits. I used to have to sharpen through the entire line up to get a hair shaving edge. After seeing the 36 grit video I decided I needed to learn to do the same. While I have never gone all the way down to 36 grit I am able to get a hair shaving edge off of a atoma 140 now. From what I can tell he is a very passionate and knowlegable knife sharpener who's biggest fault is rubbing people the wrong way.

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camcam2016 said:
Ive been watching alot of cliff stamps videos. I think it sounds good and all but most of it sounds fabricated to me. I do believe what he says about blade steels, angles etc.. But i watched a video where he said he sharpened a knife, microbevel and all, with nothing but a 36 grit dressing stone. And then proceeded to show him effortlessly swipe the hair off his arm and push cut phone book paper. He said 10-20 passes per side or something simialar (i could have the numbers wrong but you get the idea). This seems to be total bs, i took the lowest grit stone i have and very lightly just like he did passed the blade across 20 times, it didnt sharpen the knife at all. And if you push harder its gouging the edge up. What are yalls oppinions is this guy brainwashing people or am i just a inexperienced sharpener and it is actually physically possible to make a knife push cut phone book paper off a stone rougher than a cinderblock.
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Hi

Have you ever seen other people sharpening on bricks? Did you believe that?

The tip of the edge, the apex, is ~1micron or 1/1000 millimeter

Bricks are jumble with lots of grains of ~50 grit or ~336 microns or ~.338 millimeter
36 grit is ~538 microns or .538 millimeter
24 grit is ~708 microns or .708 millimeter

I've seen brick sharpening videos, so I believed this 36 grit sharpening one,
even before I learned to sharpen, and I only started in january 2015 / december 2014


I've not done bricks, but i've done 100grit, 200 grit, arm hair shaving is much easier goal than push cutting,
but
He said push cut on a 45, thats 45 degrees to the paper (45 degrees tip up), thats at an angle, its practically a slice, its like a zippercut, its the easiest push cut possible
youtube provides automatic transcripts on lots of his videos, they can be funny

 
Watching him sharpen it didnt confirm it for me, because i though he could have a microbevel sharpened on a high grit at a higher angle. And when he sharpens he is at an extremely extremely low angle, so theoriotically he could skip over the pre done bevel and imitate that he had sharpened that knife on that coarse a stone. But based on what ive read this isnt the case and hes the real deal. And also one of the reasons he can get them so sharp on a low grit is the extremely low angles he is sharpening at.
 
Many newer members may not have know it, but Buck Knives showed nearly 20 years ago that edge angle trumps steel choice by testing their new Edge 2000 edge angle against their older, more obtuse angle. The steels used were their 420HC vs BG-42, both of which were in their production line at the time. BG-42​ was one of the early stainless steels with vanadium, giving it an advantage over ATS-34 and 154-CM. For any given application, it's not unreasonable to think whichever steel can perform without damage at the lowest edge angle will hold an edge the longest.
 
The sharpening video is true. I've never come across a post where Cliff lied. His posts can be confusing to the inexperienced but always truthful. He is very generous with his time and knowledge. During a period of personal health issues I was experiencing, he would entertain my technical questions without compensation. His advice saved me time and money. You can e-mail him directly. I'm sure he would answer any questions about the content of the video. YMMV.
 
I believe its legit AND somewhat gimicky, similar to some of his other demonstrations. It is possible to get a very good edge off of low grit stones - for years all my working knives were done on a 60 grit tile rubbing stone and they'd shave arm hair and shear cut paper.

This cannot be done with any and all steels though and working the edge very acute is an important part of the process, but is important to all sharpening really.

Coarse stone sharpening is the foundation for all sharpening, you can learn a lot about mineral glazing, unit pressure, abrasive density, stone loading etc.
 
You can polish with coarse grits. The trick is very light pressure.As for Cliff..... Him and I have had an argument or two...
 
me2 said:
Many newer members may not have know it, but Buck Knives showed nearly 20 years ago that edge angle trumps steel choice by testing their new Edge 2000 edge angle against their older, more obtuse angle..
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Correct, and these blades were thinner. Which allowed them to cut better with less effort. DM
 
HeavyHanded said:
I believe its legit AND somewhat gimicky, similar to some of his other demonstrations. It is possible to get a very good edge off of low grit stones - for years all my working knives were done on a 60 grit tile rubbing stone and they'd shave arm hair and shear cut paper.

This cannot be done with any and all steels though and working the edge very acute is an important part of the process, but is important to all sharpening really.

Coarse stone sharpening is the foundation for all sharpening, you can learn a lot about mineral glazing, unit pressure, abrasive density, stone loading etc.
Click to expand...

Well said. One can learn a lot from coarse sharpening. DM
 
Those SiC coarse-grit dressing stones will only cut like something approximating 36-grit during the first use or two, when used with the typically moderate-to-light touch applied in sharpening a knife by hand. I have one of those from Norton, and it smoothes out very quickly after some light use, even after only a knife or two. It's like a lot of 'coarse' manmade stones, in that it won't retain it's original rated performance very long, if used with a moderate or light touch. If it were used as it was intended, i.e., dressing an aluminum oxide grinding wheel running under motorized power, then it'll quickly shed and refresh it's coarse grit, and I'm sure will continue to cut more aggressively. But when used by hand, it's more likely to smooth out and and even glaze a bit, until or unless some more aggressive scrubbing is done to keep it refreshing itself with 'new' coarse grit underneath the surface. This is also true of the cheap tile-rubbing stones in AlOx, if used with the moderate touch required for forming a keen edge on a knife blade. I have one of those as well, rated somewhere around 60-80 grit, and it's less aggressive than the 'finer' rated stones I have in AlOx or SiC, from Norton or ACE. In fact, I gave up on it pretty fast, because it glazed and slowed down so much after the first use or two.

So, I don't question it's a rated 36-grit stone. But instead, I seriously doubt it's still actually cutting at that level, to give the results claimed. I also believe it's a little 'gimmicky', as previously mentioned, due mainly to the fact they smooth out so fast, if the stone isn't used with sufficient pressure to keep it refreshing itself. Still, it requires a pretty good touch to get the results shown, but it's not quite as extreme as the rated grit for the stone might imply.


David
 
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HeavyHanded said:
I believe its legit AND somewhat gimicky, similar to some of his other demonstrations. It is possible to get a very good edge off of low grit stones - for years all my working knives were done on a 60 grit tile rubbing stone and they'd shave arm hair and shear cut paper.

This cannot be done with any and all steels though and working the edge very acute is an important part of the process, but is important to all sharpening really.

Coarse stone sharpening is the foundation for all sharpening, you can learn a lot about mineral glazing, unit pressure, abrasive density, stone loading etc.
Click to expand...

Quoted for truth. Lots of beginning and intermediate sharpeners--heck, even a lot of advanced sharpeners--get lost in the weeds of fine stones when they should be spending more time getting familiar with coarser ones. There are times when ultra-fine stones really are the way to go, but even in those cases a familiarity with coarse stones and their tricks can be of massive assistance when dealing with the finer stages, and knock off a lot of the time and effort of the process.

Obsessed with Edges said:
Those SiC coarse-grit dressing stones will only cut like something approximating 36-grit during the first use or two, when used with the typically moderate-to-light touch applied in sharpening a knife by hand. I have one of those from Norton, and it smoothes out very quickly after some light use, even after only a knife or two. It's like a lot of 'coarse' manmade stones, in that it won't retain it's original rated performance very long, if used with a moderate or light touch. If it were used as it was intended, i.e., dressing an aluminum oxide grinding wheel running under motorized power, then it'll quickly shed and refresh it's coarse grit, and I'm sure will continue to cut more aggressively. But when used by hand, it's more likely to smooth out and and even glaze a bit, until or unless some more aggressive scrubbing is done to keep it refreshing itself with 'new' coarse grit underneath the surface. This is also true of the cheap tile-rubbing stones in AlOx, if used with the moderate touch required for forming a keen edge on a knife blade. I have one of those as well, rated somewhere around 60-80 grit, and it's less aggressive than the 'finer' rated stones I have in AlOx or SiC, from Norton or ACE. In fact, I gave up on it pretty fast, because it glazed and slowed down so much after the first use or two.

So, I don't question it's a rated 36-grit stone. But instead, I seriously doubt it's still actually cutting at that level, to give the results claimed. I also believe it's a little 'gimmicky', as previously mentioned, due mainly to the fact they smooth out so fast, if the stone isn't used with sufficient pressure to keep it refreshing itself. Still, it requires a pretty good touch to get the results shown, but it's not quite as extreme as the rated grit for the stone might imply.


David
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Most folks get really hung up on grit rating when all that describes is the shape of the particles. The abrasive type, grade, friability, specific particle shape, bond type, bond strength, pressure, speed, lubrication, grit protrusion, material being abraded, and more all play a significant role in how the stone will behave.
 
Clean apex is the key, I and many others I know used to sharpen knives with plain metal files back in the day.

And yes they came out very sharp, wouldn't want to shave with it, but it would shave hair etc.

This isn't anything new or even special in any way.

Sharpening isn't really all that difficult, all it takes is practice really.
 
Okay guys thanks for the info, and sorry for my inexperience. I just found it amazing because all the youtube videos i had seen went to way higher grits and got the same results. Even knives from professional sharpeners like apostlep didnt seem much sharper if any. But then again, its a youtube video, and you cant really measure sharpness off what your given on a youtube video.

I have a 2 dollar ace stone and a 2 dollar ust stone. And then the lansky system. Today i am purchasing a 1000/3000 wetstone and one of them little 3 packs of super cheap diamond stones just for practice. Do yall think i need a better stone to practice on then some cheap diamond stones and some bargain bin sharpening stones (literally got them out of the bargain bin, one of them color coded yellow 2.99 blue 4.99 green 19.99 deals) I actually found the 2 dollar sharpening stone to not be to bad for what i paid. But i dont have experience with anything better besides the lansky and it cant get it sharper then i can on the 2 dollar stone, and the stone is a much lower grit.

Please not i notice alot on the lansky when im sharpening a knife, sometimes they seem sharper at 120 grit then when i finish on the 1000. All at the same edge angle etc..which is usually 20 or 25
 
Low grit edges produce a more aggressive slicing edge, while higher grit edges are better at push-cutting. I actually recently released a sharpening stone blend formulated specifically for producing cleanly apexed toothy slicing edge, the Bull Thistle series, which is a 120 ANSI medium-hard ceramic bonded ruby grit. Sometimes an edge will feel "sharper" at lower grit because it will be more aggressive in slicing cuts, though this can sometimes be deceptive since a high-grit edge of equal apex thinness will be just as sharp, just not so toothy.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
So, I don't question it's a rated 36-grit stone. But instead, I seriously doubt it's still actually cutting at that level, to give the results claimed. I also believe it's a little 'gimmicky', as previously mentioned, due mainly to the fact they smooth out so fast, if the stone isn't used with sufficient pressure to keep it refreshing itself. Still, it requires a pretty good touch to get the results shown, but it's not quite as extreme as the rated grit for the stone might imply.


David
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Hi,

Maybe its burnt meatloaf? or bigfoot droppings?

:D

If you're interested, maybe
Check the review Dressing stone : 36 grit - silicon carbide
and the discussion 36 grit dressing stone

This is how he started, poor technique
PICT0006640x480_zpsc6e7dd1d.jpg


This is with good technique
016-RS_zpssucxzjkq.jpg


This is after the stone is worn, push cuts and everything
010-RS_zps5slodtuc.jpg



I kinda doubt the guy would risk his professional reputation by faking sharpening videos for fun on the internet
 
camcam2016 said:
Okay guys thanks for the info, and sorry for my inexperience. I just found it amazing because all the youtube videos i had seen went to way higher grits and got the same results. Even knives from professional sharpeners like apostlep didnt seem much sharper if any. But then again, its a youtube video, and you cant really measure sharpness off what your given on a youtube video.

I have a 2 dollar ace stone and a 2 dollar ust stone. And then the lansky system. Today i am purchasing a 1000/3000 wetstone and one of them little 3 packs of super cheap diamond stones just for practice. Do yall think i need a better stone to practice on then some cheap diamond stones and some bargain bin sharpening stones (literally got them out of the bargain bin, one of them color coded yellow 2.99 blue 4.99 green 19.99 deals) I actually found the 2 dollar sharpening stone to not be to bad for what i paid. But i dont have experience with anything better besides the lansky and it cant get it sharper then i can on the 2 dollar stone, and the stone is a much lower grit.

Please not i notice alot on the lansky when im sharpening a knife, sometimes they seem sharper at 120 grit then when i finish on the 1000. All at the same edge angle etc..which is usually 20 or 25
Click to expand...
Hi,

What stones from what bargain bin where?


Are you talking 20-25 degrees per side with the lansky?
What is your sharpening procedure exactly? What kinfe/steel? How many passes or minutes on each stone? Deburr how?

Maybe you'll find this inspiring, lansky stones, not too shabby :)

Sharpening CPM10v From Dull To Pushcutting Newsprint One Take - knives save lives
[video=youtube;8IQjpXUGjWE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQjpXUGjWE[/video]
 
bucketstove said:
Hi,

What stones from what bargain bin where?


Are you talking 20-25 degrees per side with the lansky?
What is your sharpening procedure exactly? What kinfe/steel? How many passes or minutes on each stone? Deburr how?

Maybe you'll find this inspiring, lansky stones, not too shabby :)

Sharpening CPM10v From Dull To Pushcutting Newsprint One Take - knives save lives
[video=youtube;8IQjpXUGjWE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQjpXUGjWE[/video]
Click to expand...

Yes i usually do 20-25 degree angles on the lansky. I try and remove the burr with the finer stones, or at the beginning. I just got the lansky a week ago so i havent really been able to experiment much. With my stones i just used polish to remove burr at the end. Bargain bin at ace hardware, is where my stone is from. 2.99 stone, extremely cheap but its okay. Like i said i just ordered a 1000/3000 waterstone thats small but should do the job, and some of those cheapo diamond sharpeners in the 3 pack for under 10 dollars just for playing around with/practice. Also they may be good for setting edges. Even with the black extremely coarse stone on the lansky it takes a long time to reprofile an edge.

Also i did like the video. Shows me more i need to work with what ive got and not buy to many stones thinking they will make me better. I already knew this to an extent but i figured what i bought was just to help me learn about different stones not sharpening in general.

About the video. From what i gather i can do exactly what he did easily on the lansky, sharpening wise. Same pressure and angle would be extremely easy to generate, angle is idiot free on lansky as you know as long as you dont let it rock up and down. So what i gather is what really makes the difference is the part before the final grits, setting the apex. And the burr and what you do with it during the sharpening. I have also read that distressing the edge aka ripping off thin layer of metal and resetting apex can lead to a sharper knife that will hold its edge longer.
 
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camcam2016 said:
Yes i usually do 20-25 degree angles on the lansky. I try and remove the burr with the finer stones, or at the beginning. I just got the lansky a week ago so i havent really been able to experiment much. With my stones i just used polish to remove burr at the end. Bargain bin at ace hardware, is where my stone is from. 2.99 stone, extremely cheap but its okay. Like i said i just ordered a 1000/3000 waterstone thats small but should do the job, and some of those cheapo diamond sharpeners in the 3 pack for under 10 dollars just for playing around with/practice. Also they may be good for setting edges. Even with the black extremely coarse stone on the lansky it takes a long time to reprofile an edge.

Also i did like the video. Shows me more i need to work with what ive got and not buy to many stones thinking they will make me better. I already knew this to an extent but i figured what i bought was just to help me learn about different stones not sharpening in general.

About the video. From what i gather i can do exactly what he did easily on the lansky, sharpening wise. Same pressure and angle would be extremely easy to generate, angle is idiot free on lansky as you know as long as you dont let it rock up and down. So what i gather is what really makes the difference is the part before the final grits, setting the apex. And the burr and what you do with it during the sharpening. I have also read that distressing the edge aka ripping off thin layer of metal and resetting apex can lead to a sharper knife that will hold its edge longer.
Click to expand...

Unless the edge was heavily abused you can skip the destressing part. Regular usage wear will be more gentle on the underlying steel matrix than any abrasive reshaping.

Go to a burr or just shy and switch to a microbevel. Or go to a small burr, remove with very light, short, leading passes. Personally I prefer a single bevel at about 24-26 degrees inclusive for a coarse edge.

Push the burr to one side and try to remove it in on the first attempt, the more it flips the more difficult it will be to cleanly remove.
 
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