QC in production knife making

[Quiet]

I am with you. I can accept a decent margin of error when it comes to small blemishes on a knife, especially a production model. At the same time, I have to accept that not everyone purchases a knife for the same reasons. I have a strict "no safe queens" rule but there are plenty of straight up collectors here who have different requirements and higher standards.

The OP should understand that under close examination, the majority of knives are going to have issues. Some will be bad enough that anyone would request a refund. Others will depend on his tolerance for things like tooling marks, uneven grinds, slightly off center blades, etc. This 0560 would be fine with me. As for OP, shelling out $200 plus for a knife will create a certain level of expectation and rightfully so. This example does not meet said expectations and I can see why.

Comic books - that is a whole new level of inspecting items under a magnifying glass. That reminds me, I should look up values for some of my old series

100% agreed on all counts. Also, I DO want to clarify that I'm not making fun of Jarrod*, I actually do find it interesting that he takes issue with what I would see and disregard as no big deal. I will say in the interest of full disclosure that on knives that I have purchased for collectibility reasons (not many of these in my collection, admittedly) I would be a lot more demanding, as Jarrod is being here. If I get time, I may go back and take a closer inspection of my collection, I'm betting I'll find all sorts of things similar to what Jarrod has pointed out here, to be honest.

Comics, I am not in the game as much as I used to be, but I'm still sitting on quite a large collection, roughly 11,000 at last count before I stopped regularly collecting. One day, I'm probably going to end up moving a lot of the collection on to new homes.


*Ok, so maybe I was just razzin' him a bit LOL

 

[JarrodS]

I don't mind the razzing - I readily admit that I put more emphasis on details than the average person does. Sometimes to my detriment, sometimes to my advantage. It's just how I was raised (by a machinist, interestingly enough).

I guess I don't differentiate between a safe queen and a user in terms of my expectations. I "collect" knives but I am not buying them to keep in a safe in hope that they will increase in value or something. I plan to carry and use them - that is how I enjoy them.

There's a certain pride of ownership and appreciation for craftsmanship that drives my collecting. So if I feel there was no pride that went into producing a particular knife then the point of owning it *at all* is greatly diminished. That's what happened between me and the Spyderco Caly 3.5 CF/ZDP-189 San Mai. I tried two different examples and both had what I consider glaring issues with their craftsmanship. So now I don't own one because in my estimation the people building that knife don't care. Therefore, I don't either. Hopefully it won't come to that with the ZT 0560, we'll see.

If I viewed knives solely as utilitarian instruments, I wouldn't care about these issues, and I also wouldn't collect them.

 

[kane22]

Some have said that grind mark should be there so I guess that's the first question. If it's not I would not be happy with a knife at that price point. I'm anal about things like that so take it for what it's worth. I've also found knives to be hit and miss at about the same rate as the op. I only have one knife in the midtech level and the edge is all jacked up. Kind of makes be a little gun shy to order a $500-800 knife. I do have my most expensive knife to date on the way so I'll see what $365 gets you, and it's a fixed blade.

 

[JarrodS]

Deleted

 

[Wolf1524]

I am glad I am not the only one who puts a lot of emphasis on details. I hope ZT´s customer department will take care of you.

 

[grownstar]

BTW, for anyone who was following this discussion, the ZT in question is a 0561, not a 0560. I have trouble keeping those two straight.

If it is a genuine, brand new 0561 it should have a flat dark earth scale. Your pics seem to show a black scale. Did you happen to replace it?

I hope Lifetools didn't screw you over. Please let us know what KAI says. On the bright side, that model is a friggin' beast and a tooling mark won't really affect how much work it can do.

 

[Quiet]

BTW, for anyone who was following this discussion, the ZT in question is a 0561, not a 0560. I have trouble keeping those two straight.

The only difference is in coloration between the two. The color of the knife in your pics makes it look like a 0560, though.

 

[JarrodS]

If it is a genuine, brand new 0561 it should have a flat dark earth scale. Your pics seem to show a black scale. Did you happen to replace it?

The only difference is in coloration between the two. The color of the knife in your pics makes it look like a 0560, though.

Nope, I'm an idiot - had it right the first time - I have the 0560 (or a good fake of it ). For a minute I thought the 0560 was the unassisted Ti framelock that doesn't have the machined texture on the Ti side, which right now escapes me completely (0550?). Duh.

 

[rjmichna]

I doubt very much the groove is a defect. I've seen knives Kershaw marks as blems that I can't find a thing wrong with. They DO watch quality closely, and WILL put things right is a defect leaves their shop.

I bet the groove lines up with the closed blade stop. I believe this insures an accurate mate to the detent and stop pin.

Frankly I don't remember if my 056*'s have it or not, but I didn't look that closely. I suppose if it was a fine gentleman's knife I might notice, but on a 560?

 

[mqqn]

JarrodS -

That "tool mark" on the flipper is there to aid in machining of the detent.

It is something new, on newer knives and was a production change to make the detent in the closed position more consistent.

Not all ZT designs will need this enhancement, but it will appear where the production folks decide it is best.

In the future, please do not accuse a company of QC issues when you don't really know why something is on your knife.

Your first post seems to imply that this mark is a flaw - it is not.

best

mqqn

 

[daveb068]

As others have stated this is supposed to be there. Everything will be ok and the sun will still shine tomorrow. Looks like it's one of those improvements they didn't figure they needed to tell everyone invthe world about. Nothing as big as losing the lbs on the 300 but a change for the better nonetheless. Probably shiuld get your ducks in a row before calling an improvement a QC issue. Just my opinion, but I would have checked first before posting a thread about a nonexistent QC issue.

 

[JarrodS]

. Just my opinion, but I would have checked first before posting a thread about a nonexistent QC issue.

Well fellas, I see where you are coming from. But I did check first (reviewed a ton of photos and videos online) and none of those knives had it. So that's what led me to believe it's a QC issue. Never occurred to me that they would have made a change to the design. So if I'm spreading misinformation, then I do apologize. But you should know that I did quite a bit of research first. It could be said that if KAI USA still had a presence here they could come set the record straight directly!

In any case, even if that particular groove is a design change, the original point I was making still applies to this knife. There are issues with craftsmanship elsewhere on the titanium and the blade stock. The crass chamfer on the blade end where the frame lock engages, and the crude grinding mark on the face where the detent ball rides being the most serious. Still waiting for ZTs response.

 

[brownshoe]

Whether it belongs or not does not change the fact that these "flaws" are tiny, can only be seen readily under magnification and do not affect the knife's function. You cannot expect perfection for $200 in any knife. Your expectations are unreasonable, and you should stop collecting at this price range, because you will never be satisfied.

Your last sentence in your first post "It's just that in this day of CNC machining, ISO manufacturing standards, etc, etc, I would have thought these companies could do better. It's not as if a knife is an especially complicated device." This shows you experienced with modern manufacturing, CNC machines, ISO standards and knives. A knife is an "especially complicated device" given your expectations and the type of knives you like to buy.

 

[Quiet]

Well fellas, I see where you are coming from. But I did check first (reviewed a ton of photos and videos online) and none of those knives had it. So that's what led me to believe it's a QC issue. Never occurred to me that they would have made a change to the design. So if I'm spreading misinformation, then I do apologize. But you should know that I did quite a bit of research first. It could be said that if KAI USA still had a presence here they could come set the record straight directly!

In any case, even if that particular groove is a design change, the original point I was making still applies to this knife. There are issues with craftsmanship elsewhere on the titanium and the blade stock. The crass chamfer on the blade end where the frame lock engages, and the crude grinding mark on the face where the detent ball rides being the most serious. Still waiting for ZTs response.

Actually, you'd have been flamed and they'd have tried to have your thread closed, so it's probably for the best that Thomas isn't here! :thumbup:

And heaven help you if you'd actually posted this in the KAI section. You'd probably have had a box full of pre-chewed-on dog biscuits sent to your house or something LOL

 

[jdk1]

Jarrod, I get where you're coming from and understand this thread wasn't about this ZT, but your experience in general. I may be in the minority, but I agree with you on this topic. A few tool marks on a $27 Rat 1 is expected. A $200 folder? I would expect perfection. That is a lot of money. Just because there are more expensive knives available doesn't change the fact that the price puts it in the high-end range to the vast majority of people. User or not has zero to do with it IMHO. How many people here would buy a truck sitting on a dealer's lot and tell you that a 6" scratch on the door is fine because it's a "user"?

 

[mqqn]

Your responses have been very enlightening, thanks. I guess "Made with Pride in the USA" has lost its meaning these days. If people don't hold their feet to the fire on these issues, then I guess we get what we deserve.

Personally, I'm going to hold their feet to the fire. I took some good pics and sent them to Kai to ask for a replacement. Here are a couple for your viewing pleasure. I will refrain from further comment and just let them do the talking. Enjoy your knives, gents, whatever that means to you.

If I took a scanning electron microscope to any item I have purchased I am sure I would see indications that it was made by humans.

You can get high-end perfection that would allow you to take your macro pictures and inspect every nook and cranny of a knife, but you would be paying over $1000 for that knife.

The knife you have is an incredible bargain at the street price, and if you have to have these gallery sized blow-ups to show us the flaws then one might start to question how much of a problem it really is.

I doubt Kai is going to replace that perfectly fine knife, and I also doubt you will be pleased with anything you get from a production $200 knife.

Good luck with your quest for perfection.

best

mqqn

 

[mqqn]

Jarrod, I get where you're coming from and understand this thread wasn't about this ZT, but your experience in general. I may be in the minority, but I agree with you on this topic. A few tool marks on a $27 Rat 1 is expected. A $200 folder? I would expect perfection. That is a lot of money. Just because there are more expensive knives available doesn't change the fact that the price puts it in the high-end range to the vast majority of people. User or not has zero to do with it IMHO. How many people here would buy a truck sitting on a dealer's lot and tell you that a 6" scratch on the door is fine because it's a "user"?

What if the 6" scratch is on the frame facing upward toward the bottom of the bed, and you could only see if if you crawled around under the truck with a light and a magnifying glass?

How much perfection would you expect ?

I had a good friend who is so picky about cars he has had a gut wrenching experience every time he buys a car, and of course the person selling him the car also has the same experience.

One time a dealer employee told my friend that you can't pick apart a production car like a street rod, and he was correct.

best regards

mqqn

 

[JarrodS]

Jarrod, I get where you're coming from

Thanks JDK, it means a lot to know I'm not alone.

To those suggesting that you have to use magnification or special lighting to see these issues - NO. I plainly see them naked eye in my dimly lit office. Are they small? Yeah. But that's not the point - the point is someone used piss-poor technique to craft some parts of this knife and it shows. If that's what I wanted, I could have gone with a $15 flea market flipper.

It's a shame, really, to take such a high quality blade and then grind the lock face like a blind person on meth. Seriously it makes me sad. I'm not saying I expect it to look as if it were hand-honed by Rick Hinderer himself. Just basic shop technique that any 10th grader could have picked up in class.

 

[salmonkiller]

My 0560 does not have the machining marks the op posted. The knives I own that are similarly priced dont have qc issues. If they did then I would have returned them to the dealer when I purcased them. If I was not happy then I would demand my hard earned money back. I only purchase new knives from a reputable dealer with a friendly return policy. I would expect a new knife to meet my standards or back it would go.

 

[bld522]

I also get where Jarrod is coming from. In my case, I received an 0770CF with a cosmetic flaw in the CF scale. The rest of the knife was perfect and the flaw did not affect its performance. But I had just paid $180.00 for it (it was part of the first batch of 0770CFs to be delivered) and it was probably going to be the only ZT I'd ever own. So I wanted it to be right. I sent the knife to the manufacturer for warranty repair and received it 9 days later with a perfect CF scale on it. So I say if you're not satisfied with your knife for some reason, don't send it back to the dealer. Contact the manufacturer, run your concerns by them, and send the knife to them if you decide it needs work. It's going to cost you the same amount to ship it to the manufacturer as it would to ship it back to the dealer. And it's not the dealer's fault if the knife isn't right. That's why the warranty is there.