Quality control and what is acceptable with production knives

Quality= do it once and do it right.

Now, I carry a lh millie everyday and it is my grail knife and probably spyderco's best product but to me it seems like their CS&QC are slipping a bit.

Though not my favorite knives I've never seen a flawed kershaw out of the box.
 
I would tend to agree with knarfeng, in that if the knife is to be used as a 'user' tool, such a cosmetic flaw will have zero impact on it's functionality. If it became annoying, a simple dab of epoxy would fix things right up. That said, a flaw of that magnitude in a new knife would bug the hell out of me. I would be tempted to send an email with those pictures attached, to Sal Glesser at Spyderco. You will be treated well and he can't fix what he doesn't know about.
 
For me a good part of the reason I would pay more for a CF knife is not for better functionality (as the less costly G10 scales are fantastic functionally) but for their gorgeous looks when done well... as on the Sage. I love the look, feel, fit and finish of the CF scales Spyderco has used with the Sage.

I would send that knife back for cosmetic reasons alone. I think that if the beautiful look of nicely finished CF isn't a desired feature in a knife, one might as well save some money and go with G10 scales which work wonderfully.
 
If that was a blem or sold as used and the description was accurate it would be acceptable.

As new - that is unacceptable.

You should send it back.

Looks like someone got a little overzealous when tightening the scale screws.
 
Hi guys -

I have seen several post the sentiment of "it's just a tool, so it does not matter" and that's just fine.

My take on this is that these "tools" are precision machined and heat treated in a precise manner. If the manufacturer cannot even drill a hole in carbon fiber (the hole on the OP's example looks like it was chiseled, not drilled...) then where else is the quality or attention to detail bad? The heat treat? The lock? Where?

Seeing a flaw like that does not inspire confidence in my mind.

Even if I were buying a nice Eastwing hammer, I would not want it to look like it was poorly crafted; I can buy cheaply crafted tools at Harbor Freight if that is what I am looking for.

I see no reason why a knife manufacturer cannot hold tight tolerances and produce a product that is pleasing to the eye, hand and still be a good useable tool.

Case, Buck and Kershaw have been doing just that for many years - I have never seen anything remotely close to the poor craftsmanship shown in the OP's picture from any of the aforementioned manufacturers.

best regards -

mqqn
 
knifenut1013 said:
Quality= do it once and do it right.

Now, I carry a lh millie everyday and it is my grail knife and probably spyderco's best product but to me it seems like their CS&QC are slipping a bit.

Though not my favorite knives I've never seen a flawed kershaw out of the box.
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Just as a data point, I did get a NIB Kershaw that needed to go back. The issue was with a weak engaging linerlock that would disengage with normal gripping pressure.

Going back to the OP, as much as I love and think highly of Spyderco, that knife needs a trip back to Golden. It really seem like the recent examples of Japan made knives have more than their share of QC issues. This sort of thing should be caught before the knife ever makes it out of the factory doors. Think of how many people would have handled the knife before it was put into a box. My CF Walker is perfect, and I hope that's the norm.

I'm wondering, if a knife gets returned to a dealer for an exchange, what happens to the first knife? Obviously, there's something wrong with the first one to warrant a return. Does it get resold to the next poor sod who may not be so picky or go back to the manufacturer?
 
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If it's a warranty/defect return, generally it should go back to the manufacturer to get repaired, marked and sold as a second, or tossed. With that, it would be inspected and logged to see where the problem lies and how pervasive it is for any given model so it can be fixed and avoided in the future. I'm guessing Spyderco does at least that much, Sal seems very keen on feedback.

This is a sprint run, and selling for 100-180 in a google search. I don't think cracked and delaminating scale material is supposed to be accepted.
 
All my knives are users, but to me that's unacceptable. That's a plain old broken scale in my book.
 
mqqn said:
Hi guys -

I have seen several post the sentiment of "it's just a tool, so it does not matter" and that's just fine.

My take on this is that these "tools" are precision machined and heat treated in a precise manner. If the manufacturer cannot even drill a hole in carbon fiber (the hole on the OP's example looks like it was chiseled, not drilled...) then where else is the quality or attention to detail bad? The heat treat? The lock? Where?
Seeing a flaw like that does not inspire confidence in my mind.

Even if I were buying a nice Eastwing hammer, I would not want it to look like it was poorly crafted; I can buy cheaply crafted tools at Harbor Freight if that is what I am looking for.

I see no reason why a knife manufacturer cannot hold tight tolerances and produce a product that is pleasing to the eye, hand and still be a good useable tool.

Case, Buck and Kershaw have been doing just that for many years - I have never seen anything remotely close to the poor craftsmanship shown in the OP's picture from any of the aforementioned manufacturers.

best regards -

mqqn
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Let me play the devils advocate here, sure I am a little biased but:
-Who is to say it left the factory that way? None of us know, not even the factory for that matter as they see hundreds of knives daily.
-This is a production knife, you want something closer to perfection, there are always custom makers that will gladly take your $400-$1000 and put your name on a long list. Just saying.
-Just because 1 knife has a ding in it makes the company a failure. that is jumping the gun and a completely irrational point of view.
-IMO that knife looks like it was hit with something on the corner, and possibly the frayed CF was peeled away. hard to tell exactly, I'm not a forensic scientist.
-Spyderco actually makes some of the best knives on the planet and for a better price than most other manufacturers based on steels. Case in point Gayle Bradley CF scales, CMP-M4 steel comes in under $150. Other companies charge $250+ for similar knives. This particular knife has the closest tolerances, smoothest action, premium F&F, and materials you will ever find for that price. Aside from that, the owner himself personally makes things right if there is something wrong. Does it really get better?

The first attempt to fix this kind of issue should be the point of sale, contact the dealer and email pictures. that damage on the knife is not alright. All teh CF scale knives I have (10 total), none of them look that way, if they did I would have either gotten a refund or an exchange.
 
I've gotten more than one new from AD Kershaw that was WAAAAY too far left or right; chips or nicks on the edge; etc.

"shit happens" but the important questions are

how often? (statistics - can indicate production or materials problem; or just plain poor "I don't give a shit" attitude)

and how is it dealt with when reported?

Thanks everyone.
 
Agreed and I certainly wasn't making any generalizations.

"Let me play the devils advocate here, sure I am a little biased but:
-Who is to say it left the factory that way? "

True!

"-This is a production knife, you want something closer to perfection, there are always custom makers that will gladly take your $400-$1000 and put your name on a long list. Just saying."

I understand your point, but I have to disagree; even custom makers have let "crap" out their doors. It's all a matter of statistics (it shouldn't be, each and every piece coming out of custom shop should be final QC'd for fit and finish, for that kind of money. But then, in this case, it could be a philosophical problem - some custom makers don't care so much about F&F, it's not "their thing.")

So I'm not sure it's a black and white thing, it seems to be a matter of degree and probability and setting "what is acceptable."

"-Just because 1 knife has a ding in it makes the company a failure. that is jumping the gun and a completely irrational point of view."

Agreed, and I'm not sure anyone so far, certainly not me, in this thread is concluding Spyderco is a failure.

"-Spyderco actually makes some of the best knives on the planet and for a better price than most other manufacturers based on steels. Case in point Gayle Bradley CF scales, CMP-M4 steel comes in under $150. Other companies charge $250+ for similar knives. This particular knife has the closest tolerances, smoothest action, premium F&F, and materials you will ever find for that price. Aside from that, the owner himself personally makes things right if there is something wrong. Does it really get better?"

Agreed, the Bradley is really, really awesome in every way. And MIT (Made in Taiwan - sorry, old prejudices showing here) - it is comparable to anything made in Japan or the good ole US of A.
 
damfan said:
Agreed and I certainly wasn't making any generalizations.

"Let me play the devils advocate here, sure I am a little biased but:
-Who is to say it left the factory that way? "

True!

"-This is a production knife, you want something closer to perfection, there are always custom makers that will gladly take your $400-$1000 and put your name on a long list. Just saying."

I understand your point, but I have to disagree; even custom makers have let "crap" out their doors. It's all a matter of statistics (it shouldn't be, each and every piece coming out of custom shop should be final QC'd for fit and finish, for that kind of money. But then, in this case, it could be a philosophical problem - some custom makers don't care so much about F&F, it's not "their thing.")

So I'm not sure it's a black and white thing, it seems to be a matter of degree and probability and setting "what is acceptable."

"-Just because 1 knife has a ding in it makes the company a failure. that is jumping the gun and a completely irrational point of view."

Agreed, and I'm not sure anyone so far, certainly not me, in this thread is concluding Spyderco is a failure.

"-Spyderco actually makes some of the best knives on the planet and for a better price than most other manufacturers based on steels. Case in point Gayle Bradley CF scales, CMP-M4 steel comes in under $150. Other companies charge $250+ for similar knives. This particular knife has the closest tolerances, smoothest action, premium F&F, and materials you will ever find for that price. Aside from that, the owner himself personally makes things right if there is something wrong. Does it really get better?"

Agreed, the Bradley is really, really awesome in every way. And MIT (Made in Taiwan - sorry, old prejudices showing here) - it is comparable to anything made in Japan or the good ole US of A.
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Excellent post, I do agree with your perspective.:thumbup:I felt the same way about MIT knives, then I got a Sage 1 in the mail and I changed my mind. Even more when I got the GB, I was completely impressed with that knife. Sal hit a homerun with this group, no doubt about it.

I completely agree with the custom makers letting a turd slide out the gates occasionally, shite does happen. However, to elaborate on my comment - Most people find strong correlation between a custom knife maker and a "perfect knife". It's all in the eye of the owner/purchaser.:thumbup:
 
I don't get all the philosophical and mathematical perspectives. That knife ain't right. Send it back and ask for an inspected exchange or a refund.

I got a crappy BM a couple of months ago, and did just that, the owner of the shop pulled out a replacement, looked it over thoroughly and shipped it out. No problem, they were very nice people at KW's.

The last folders I've purchased, I've asked if they would please take the knife out and check the blade centering, fit & finish or cancel the order (in the comments box) and no problems at all with the folders!

Maybe I'm too picky but this has worked for me. :)
 
For me that isn't even a 2nd. That is just broken. Send it back and hope for a better one.

I am starting to think that Japan needs some better QC guide lines. Sprint run or not that doesn't look like a "learning curve problem". That looks more like "I don't care". Kind of the same problem GM had with most of their cars in the past.
 
This is simple. This is unacceptable, whether you are a 'cf fanboy', as the OP is since obviously he ordered it, or not. I think the chain of command starts at the point of sale - and skips to the manufacturer. One fuzzed spot, which can occur with G10 or canvas Micarta as well - usually from dull tooling (...or defective material!), can be fixed with epoxy or thick CA - followed by sanding properly. I think the manufacturer will be the actual source of satisfaction here.

Now, as to the original question, "Q.C. and what is acceptable with production knives...", I have some feelings on the matter. Sharpness was a criteria - not so anymore. From my experience, Bark River K&T, Boker Tree Brand (Germany), Buck, KaBar, Kershaw, RAT/ESEE, Spyderco, and Victorinox (Swiss) only ship knives you can shave arm hairs with. Benchmade, Marbles, Puma (Germany), etc are a crap shoot. I had a dull Benchmade Grip for over five years before trying an Activator+ fb of their's - my second B-M - also dull. Finally, just over a year ago, I tried a third B-M - I had mastered the Spydie 'Sharpmaker' - sharpness for a double bevel knife was no longer a criteraia - I can attain it! I've bought a dozen since then - and many came as razors, too.

What is important is the design being good - the materials properly chosen, milled, and finished. If the ergonomics aren't 'right' - that's on me - if the knife is well executed. All knives don't fit my hand equally well. The OP's cf scales were sub-par, QC-wise. The most uniform 'semi-production' knives I know of - really top drawer in quality, whether you buy their lowest price G10/Micarta handled or most esoteric and pricey spalted blah-blah wood handled knives is Bark River - custom quality. YMMV.

Stainz
 
:-)

"fanboy" = "I love and will defend the brand/material/design/whatever no matter how crappy it is." for example, a "CF fanboy" would try to blame me, who just took the darned knife out of the box, for the problem - too picky, don't understand CF, whatever.

Or "Spyderco is the best. They are perfect. Therefore, the problem with that piece doesn't exist."

I assure you, I am not a "cf fanboy" even if I did buy the thing.

:D
 
"I don't get all the philosophical and mathematical perspectives. That knife ain't right. Send it back and ask for an inspected exchange or a refund."

There are two issues here -

The specific knife (knives - remember, both had similar problems, one worse than the other) - simple - it needs to be returned and replaced, or refunded. End of story (this is now so clear from all the posts, but when I saw the thing yesterday, first time out of the box, I was so shocked, I thought maybe I was expecting too much. Obviously, I wasn't.

But there is also the broader issue, which some may say is a :jerkit: but which WILL effect each and every one of us, sooner or later - just how often do these "Screw ups" happen, in a product line, or in a company?

Hopefully it's an exception and "shit happens"

But what if there is someone on the production line who just doesn't care?

Or a whole batch of CF scales came in from the sub-contractor with sub-standard binder? or CF sheets?

What if the buyer has a different expectation of what constitutes "acceptable" from Sal Glesser? Or Loveless?

That's where the math and philosophy comes in...
 
I suppose this happens in any company damfan.

I retired, as mentioned in another thread, from a Rubber & Polymer factory. Everything is set down as far what happens to every component of a finished product. From, in our case, the raw elements are tested at the supplier, we re-test them in our labs and we mix them to a very rigid/concise recipe.

Then the clips, rods, steel that they'll be molded to is inspected and passed if okay, down to the molding operators. Their molds have to be cleaned, sprayed with lubricants, etc.. Then the hard pieces are inserted into the molds and slugs, of rubber or polymer cover them (in the case of non-injected molding) and cured at a precise temperature for a pre-set time limit and then taken out, trimmed and placed in a tub for inspection.

After this in any buffing is done - it's completed and put into a tub when completed and inspected again. Every part at every step is inspected by the operators and floor inspectors.

I could go on for a long time about other stages of different lines in our plant but what I want to say really, is that if one stage in the process from the raw elements, to the components being used, to make a finished part, slips past an operator, or floor inspector - a tremendous amount of defective parts can leave the building with terrible consequences. Heads roll.

We have had entire crews put on probation, written up etc. for these slips. It only takes one person (or crew) with a bad attitude, problems at home, drinking/drugs or whatever, to make the whole system break down.

There are way too many safeguards installed in a big company to allow this sort of thing to occur. This could be as simple as an automated fastener machine being set "too tight."

That's why I recommended that you send it back. It's not only best for you, but you may save 100 or even 1000 customers the same problem by the company going back in the steps and pin-pointing the exact place (supplier/machine/automated press/crew/employee/inspector) that has allowed sub-standard product to be made and passed off as A1 - 100% Quality Items.....just saying :)
 
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