Quartermaster Knives

G. Scott H. said:
I've heard of 154CM sometimes having large inclusions of carbides, but I would think that this problem would be much less (or even nonexistent) with CPM154, considering the powder metallurgy process used to make it. :confused:
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Please allow me to explain: I was NOT talking about the size of carbides but about the cleanliness of CPM154: i.e. the inclusion of "foreign" particles, not belonging to alloy constituents.
It is still 1st generation PM.
You may wish to give this thread a look for a clear difference about the PM generations:
http://www.sablade.com/forums/showthread.php?48-Thoughts-on-Bohler-Elmax-M390-and-RWL-34

If we come to talk about carbide size, even if CPM154/BD4P/RWL34 are all happy AISI618 mates we would be forced to recognize that some differences are there.
Read what his Majesty Devin Thomas says about it:
"Though AEB-L is not a powder metallurgy steel, it contains very tiny carbides, its average carbide size is six-tenths of one micron, powder metallurgy steels such as CPM-154 have a carbide size of 2-4 microns and larger."
Depending upon heat treatment in AISI 618 class the Primary carbides will be Cr M23C6 or Cr M23C6+M7C3 or finally Cr M7C3+M7C (very fine Moly) types.

Chemically speaking CPM154 has no Vanadium, BD4P has 0.10% and RWL34 has 0.30%. Even this tiny amounts of Vanadium will have a great effect of grain refinement and will shift to the right the TTC and CCT curves, giving an easier quenching time "window" for austenite->martensite transformation.

Anyway having Carpenter bought Latrobe and hence Crucible, my understanding is that having already a 2nd gen. PM AISI 618 class steel on their selling line, CPM154 will have no future (sooner or later).

Getting to ZT vs Quartermaster, coming from Italy I quite don't get the point in such a comparison!
1)Both makers are from USA mates....
2)Steels and handle materials used are different.
3)Their knives sell at QUITE DIFFERENT price tags.

I've the above mentioned Quartermaster, I own a ZT 0560 that will soon receive his deserved Desert Ironwood handle. Different blade length, different frame material, different steel and I wouldn't even dare to dream about saying one of them is definitely inferior!!
I've also had a ZT0566, 175EUR shipped against 184EUR paid for QTR-6. I made up my mind to sell the ZT as the assisted opening was continuously catching quite a bit of attention even when opening hefty packages at work.

It is true that ZT has made some very top notch highly limited versions. I was about to pull the trigger but I stopped at the time I realized I could buy a one-of-a-kind Custom at same price and same materials, made to my full specs, even as far as heat treat was concerned.

Back to production knives of the two brands, Elmax is 3rd Gen. PM and BD4P is 2nd, so there is a difference: finer grain, less (possible) inclusions, greater toughness and chemistry wise roughly 2%MC Vanadium carbides + 16% M7C3 Cr carbides (59 HRC 1080°C (1975°F) + 200°C (392°F)/2x2h) and BD4P will have 9%M7C3 + 1%M6C (59 HRC 1050°C (1920°F) + 200°C (392°F)/2x2h) per my literature. CPM154 datasheet mention 17.5% total carbides, but I guess it is not so.
I have specific literature about Elmax coming from an Istitute of Metallurgy in Switzerland that proves that Elmax performs >35J of toughness over its entire tempering range, reaching its very top when tempered in the secondary range (43J at about 62.5HRC).
Oddly enough Carpenter did NOT release any toughness literature at all about BD4P.
There would be some major differences in edge retention, obviously enough, when cutting on abrasive media, ceteribus paribus. Elmax should hold a 20-25% advantage.
But, once again, it all depends upon the HT.

I could go on comparing stain and pitting resistance, but I would not derail the thread.
 
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The Quartermaster Hannibal, or Quartermaster-4, looks awesome. I'd seen it around for awhile, but didn't think much of it. I like big folders, and even though I saw it in the XL section of some site, it didn't seem like a big folder. Then I came across its weight, and looked it up on youtube -- and it's actually quite large. It's almost the length of a Cold Steel Voyager XL, but wider. It has a totally different feel and look in real life, and it's one of the coolest looking knives I've seen. The entire knife looks very sturdy, with one exception -- the lock looks relatively weak and thin.
 
jac_solar said:
The Quartermaster Hannibal, or Quartermaster-4, looks awesome. I'd seen it around for awhile, but didn't think much of it. I like big folders, and even though I saw it in the XL section of some site, it didn't seem like a big folder. Then I came across its weight, and looked it up on youtube -- and it's actually quite large. It's almost the length of a Cold Steel Voyager XL, but wider. It has a totally different feel and look in real life, and it's one of the coolest looking knives I've seen. The entire knife looks very sturdy, with one exception -- the lock looks relatively weak and thin.
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Besides this I guess simply CPM154 would not fit the bill for such an heavy duty folder👎
 
daberti said:
Besides this I guess simply CPM154 would not fit the bill for such an heavy duty folder
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It looks and feels heavy duty, but like I mentioned, the lock seems really fragile.

Take a look;

Q4a.jpg


The liner thickness is already quite thin, but then they've cutout at least half of its thickness in the area leading up to the tang. The blade is pretty large, so you'd think the liner would be a bit thicker. I don't actually know if this is a problem, though.

How sturdy are liners in folders in general, in any case?
 
I think the liners are all the same thickness on the original Qmstr models, about 1/16" or a hair over, which is plenty beefy for most of the models, like the Baracas and Murdock that I have, but I agree that it would have been nice if they'd bumped them up into the 3/32" range on the Hannibal (at least on the lock side), with it's large heavy blade. Will strength actually be an issue in real life? I don't know. I haven't seen anyone abuse a Hannibal thus far (chopping, etc.).
 
G. Scott H. said:
I think the liners are all the same thickness on the original Qmstr models, about 1/16" or a hair over, which is plenty beefy for most of the models, like the Baracas and Murdock that I have, but I agree that it would have been nice if they'd bumped them up into the 3/32" range on the Hannibal (at least on the lock side), with it's large heavy blade. Will strength actually be an issue in real life? I don't know. I haven't seen anyone abuse a Hannibal thus far (chopping, etc.).
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Well, I should tell a long story.....yet I'll cut it short.
When a heavy duty folder with roughly more than 11cm of blade length faces some real use,

1)Handle thickness and locking asset should be VERY overbuilt, as some serious torsion forces are to be expected. IMHO the only reliable locking asset is the back-lock, possibly with an added safety (the way Extrema Ration does). Back-lock does not take away any material from handles, that this way are an uninterrupted symmetrical surface, with really added strength. That is the weakness of frame-lock: asymmetrical and prone to cross-section (twist) failures.

2)Sooner or later you will realize that such a folder will raise carry issues: will not fit in a normal pocket, will fit into a cargo pocket but this way you'll end in having not much less than 350gr following your own leg movement back and forth.
Tried in my long trekking sessions (with other knives) and not my favourite ticket for sure.
At this time I've discovered that a properly designed fixed knife can be carried in a variety of flavours, with more ease and final performance.

3)Blade steel: I've already said the culprits of CPM154 and in the AISI 618 realm BD4P and RWL34 are way better choices. Yet given the blade length and possible solicitations I'd have choosen Carpenter Micro-melt PD#1 (to stay in the USA made steels swimming pool) at 61HRC.
 
Is it really worth discussing ANY practical implications of this knife design??? LOOK at it! Poor choice of steel, poor lock design, blade thickness, blah-blah - it has 3 thumbstuds per side AND a flipper! It is so bad@$$ you need THREE thumbs to even open it! I mean, seriously folks, what about this knife makes you think ANY thought went into practical application in use as a cutting tool?? It has an edge? The pocket-clip? It barely has a functional handle much less a sturdy lock! :confused: Changing the blade steel would barely scratch the surface of the problems, but you needn't really change anything if the knife isn't designed to actually be used, no?
 
chiral.grolim said:
Is it really worth discussing ANY practical implications of this knife design??? LOOK at it! Poor choice of steel, poor lock design, blade thickness, blah-blah - it has 3 thumbstuds per side AND a flipper! It is so bad@$$ you need THREE thumbs to even open it! I mean, seriously folks, what about this knife makes you think ANY thought went into practical application in use as a cutting tool?? It has an edge? The pocket-clip? It barely has a functional handle much less a sturdy lock! :confused: Changing the blade steel would barely scratch the surface of the problems, but you needn't really change anything if the knife isn't designed to actually be used, no?
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ER RAO1st series has even worse steel, it is heftier, cutting edge is ugly, yet locking/handles are uber-reliable and I guess a full Rgt and many normal users employ it.
This is to say that a poor design can ALWAYS be improved by means of constructive criticism, as ER did passing from RAO 1st series to the actual one.
Said that Quartermaster offer a fixed knife with same blade length that would be better than the one we're discussing about.
 
daberti said:
ER RAO1st series has even worse steel, it is heftier, cutting edge is ugly, yet locking/handles are uber-reliable and I guess a full Rgt and many normal users employ it.
This is to say that a poor design can ALWAYS be improved by means of constructive criticism, as ER did passing from RAO 1st series to the actual one.
Said that Quartermaster offer a fixed knife with same blade length that would be better than the one we're discussing about.
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A very reasonable response. :thumbup:
Well, at least the spine of the handle curves somewhat. I wish Quartermaster the best of luck as they work to improve their designs... if they do, that is.
 
chiral.grolim said:
A very reasonable response. :thumbup:
Well, at least the spine of the handle curves somewhat. I wish Quartermaster the best of luck as they work to improve their designs... if they do, that is.
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I'm glad that you agree with me :thumbup:

I mentioned Carpenter Micro-melt PD#1 because it is substantially a modified CPM-3V, with 0.3% more C (1.6%), 0.3% more Moly (1.6%), 0.40% less V (2.35%) with 1.10%W and Micro-Melt technology (very very fine grained 2nd Gen. PM). It is very straightforward to heat treat: no deep cryo required to minimize retained austenite, can even be air quenched.
Carbide type would be only very hard MC Vanadium type (I guess >4% in volume) and maybe some W type carbide as well, thus all Cr would be left in solid solution for stain resistance. Improved Moly content would mainly be left in solid solution (I guess 1.2%) and it would help improving pitting corrosion resistance if compared to CPM-3V which was said to pit rust. In the end it would be -per my educated guess- decently more surface-rust and pitting-rust resistant than D2 in as quenched state when lets say both were austenitized at 1066°C-1093°C (and even more resistant to this extent after tempering).
The W added, absent from CPM-3V plays some very rewarding roles, for which I would like you to take a read here.

The toughness of this steel would roughly be on par or better with CPM-3V at comparable or even higher hardness.
The only maker employing this steel so far being Strider Knives.

Other than this, for sake of clarity, I feel somehow compelled to disclose where I purchased my QTR-6, should ever some EU mate read this thread.
Oddly enough in Italy, if you buy from the usual Cutlery Store, a knife sold at 200USD turns into a 300EUR price tag :grumpy:
 
I picked up a QTR-6 on black friday for $99! I've owned 0550/0560, but they're quite a bit more. This thing flips great, lock-up is very solid (a little bit of stick, but I like that so I know it won't slip on me). It's very comfortable actually, entirely more comfortable than the 0560 for sure. Don't know about the 0550... The back of the knife is somewhat shaped like a hinderer actually. Jimping is outstanding, perfect balance of comfort and usability. My only complaint is the pocket clip. The chainring bolt construction is unique, but very solid. Massively heavy though. But that's the type of knife. It is SS framelock, but the lockbar is quite thick so really no worries there.

Came razor sharp, I'm quite happy with it. Solid knife.

For $99? AMAZING! For full retail price of $198? No way; get a ZT.
 
So to draw some conclusions it looks like three mates here had expressed positive a evaluation about QTR-6 model :)
 
Seilu said:
Honestly, people on BF overrate ZT and put them on a pedestal. I've owned 3 ZT knives, and while nice they're not as godly as people make them out to be and all 3 are no longer with me. Simply hit and miss like every other company. My friend has a wicked ZT0600 though, which is fantastic.
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There WAS a video a while back where a guy took a ZT 0301 and 0100 and hammered them through copper pipes and steel bolts:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/668217-ZT-Knives-Cutting-through-Bolts-and-copper

Sadly, that video doesn't seem to be there anymore.

In any case, it kind of shows how the knives will perform when pushed to the limits.

Given the tacticool nature of Quartermaster knives, I wouldn't consider buying one unless I see them put through that kind of testing, or at least something Ankerson would do to them:thumbup:.

A pity too, as I wanted to try one of the Warren Thomas designs.

In any case, while ZT might have some shortcomings as far as designs(might be heavier and clunkier than some would like for the size), I wouldn't doubt the quality and the customer service. If I'm trapped in a burning building and need to pry a door open, a ZT would be my first choice, because apparently a pry bar isn't included next to the fire extinguisher.
 
bladeboss said:
YUCK:barf:
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So like so many others, you will immediately judge a book by its cover. I owned (very briefly) a Mantis Pit Boss, and aside from being smooth to open it was unmitigated crap. I really gave that knife as much of a try as possible, but it just sucked. I was curious when I saw Quartermaster because they had similar designs but improved everything (proper steel, bearings, improved ergos). The Pit Boss was all hotspots, every edge was 90°, but the Murdock that I fell in love with has all chamfered edges. The G10 has just the right grip, and the jimping is grippy but not sharp.

Long story short, handle a few then make your decision. People like Strider, and they are ugly as sin.
 
Funny you mention Strider given the pitiful attempt at a nightmare grind I'm looking at:thumbup:.

As far as "ugly as sin", the SnG and SmF actually has quite a bit of appeal with the handle design where if flares out at the end. Seems like it would be a real pleasure to hold a CC version with that feature, and is likely the reason why such models(the CC) are sold out everywhere I look.


It's just that a lot of the quartermaster knives seem to have unnecessary(and not in a good way) and utterly useless features.
 
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