Quartermaster Knives

[daberti]

Long story short, handle a few then make your decision. People like Strider, and they are ugly as sin.

Completely agreed
+1

 

[SixStringSamurai]

So like so many others, you will immediately judge a book by its cover. I owned (very briefly) a Mantis Pit Boss, and aside from being smooth to open it was unmitigated crap. I really gave that knife as much of a try as possible, but it just sucked. I was curious when I saw Quartermaster because they had similar designs but improved everything (proper steel, bearings, improved ergos). The Pit Boss was all hotspots, every edge was 90°, but the Murdock that I fell in love with has all chamfered edges. The G10 has just the right grip, and the jimping is grippy but not sharp.

Long story short, handle a few then make your decision. People like Strider, and they are ugly as sin.

Never tried the Murdock, but I too had a pit boss for a bit. Had more or less the same experience too. It sucks because I really wanted to like that knife.

 

[daberti]

@Noctis

With given respect, mate, to my knowledge the only commercial/production folding knife born to be used as a pry bar is E.R. RAO.

I owned many Strider knives and using them without gloves it brought about blisters, not to mention the ABSURD (today I'm in polite mode ) price they're sold at, which makes it economically cheaper to buy a custom folder with custom handles, design and steel (heat treated per my knowledge and likings).

Then. ZT knives...also here I can chime in. Model 0560 i.e. Elmax steel, titanium frame (one side) and butter smooth opening.
When it came to my regular 1yr servicing inspection that I do on each of my folders I grabbed the torx keys of mine and tried to unscrew the screws. Sorry to say that they were glued, so I had to have the frame clamped and with some lubrificant and a lot of efforts I eventually managed to get things done. At which point I discovered quite an interesting fact: all of the torx sockets have quit, were no longer usable. Nice isn't it?
So I wrote to ZT and they said they would have shipped the screw set in a few days. It was March the 3rd of current year. No screws yet, but I went it my own way and bought some #6 - 32 UNC Socket Button Headed Screws, Allen Bolts 1936-60 UNC Thread - Grade 12.9, Self Coloured (due to HT).
So, original screws, including pivot screw that I'm replacing as well, were not HTd and were VERY mild, which I could accept in a 30EUR knife but not here.

Like it or not QTRMSTR uses a fully hardened stainless steel frame/screws/pivot screw asset and this means A LOT MORE mechanical resistance.
This at a fraction of the price of ZT/Strider.

What about blade performance of my own QTRMSTR #6 against my own ZT 0560 ?
Admittedly I'd both HRC tested. 61.2 and 59.8 respectively. Elmax should be HTd at 61+ to deliver its own, so all I can say is that edge holding is on par, with slightly more stain resistance to ZT 0560 credit.

Bottom line: titanium frames on steel blades (R.I.L. locking system) are not my own preferite ticket as far as reliability and long term even wear resistance are concerned.

 

[jac_solar]

@Noctis

With given respect, mate, to my knowledge the only commercial/production folding knife born to be used as a pry bar is E.R. RAO.

I owned many Strider knives and using them without gloves it brought about blisters, not to mention the ABSURD (today I'm in polite mode ) price they're sold at, which makes it economically cheaper to buy a custom folder with custom handles, design and steel (heat treated per my knowledge and likings).

Then. ZT knives...also here I can chime in. Model 0560 i.e. Elmax steel, titanium frame (one side) and butter smooth opening.
When it came to my regular 1yr servicing inspection that I do on each of my folders I grabbed the torx keys of mine and tried to unscrew the screws. Sorry to say that they were glued, so I had to have the frame clamped and with some lubrificant and a lot of efforts I eventually managed to get things done. At which point I discovered quite an interesting fact: all of the torx sockets have quit, were no longer usable. Nice isn't it?
So I wrote to ZT and they said they would have shipped the screw set in a few days. It was March the 3rd of current year. No screws yet, but I went it my own way and bought some #6 - 32 UNC Socket Button Headed Screws, Allen Bolts 1936-60 UNC Thread - Grade 12.9, Self Coloured (due to HT).
So, original screws, including pivot screw that I'm replacing as well, were not HTd and were VERY mild, which I could accept in a 30EUR knife but not here.

Like it or not QTRMSTR uses a fully hardened stainless steel frame/screws/pivot screw asset and this means A LOT MORE mechanical resistance.
This at a fraction of the price of ZT/Strider.

What about blade performance of my own QTRMSTR #6 against my own ZT 0560 ?
Admittedly I'd both HRC tested. 61.2 and 59.8 respectively. Elmax should be HTd at 61+ to deliver its own, so all I can say is that edge holding is on par, with slightly more stain resistance to ZT 0560 credit.

Bottom line: titanium frames on steel blades (R.I.L. locking system) are not my own preferite ticket as far as reliability and long term even wear resistance are concerned.

I'm new to knives and all, and I don't quite understand why so many knives use titanium lock frames. Stainless steel is significantly stronger as a frame or linerlock, and it's cheaper. Maybe there's not much difference?

 

[Noctis3880]

@Noctis

With given respect, mate, to my knowledge the only commercial/production folding knife born to be used as a pry bar is E.R. RAO.

Looks like a prybar, but I wouldn't say it's "born to be used as a prybar" unless it's 2 feet long where you can get some leverage on it with two hands.

I owned many Strider knives and using them without gloves it brought about blisters, not to mention the ABSURD (today I'm in polite mode ) price they're sold at, which makes it economically cheaper to buy a custom folder with custom handles, design and steel (heat treated per my knowledge and likings).

Agreed that the handles look like they would shred your hands, to say nothing of actually using one. Thus why I placed specific emphasis on the CC versions, which again seem to sell out the fastest.

As far as full customs, I think that'll largely depend on materials and the maker. I've yet to have one made that is 100% custom designed as opposed to pre-made designs like Andrew Demko's AD-10(for reference, mine costs $800 with M390 steel and Desert Ironwood inlays). I'd expect such customs to have an extra premium tacked on for that effort. As well, I again made specific mention to the handle design, which looks like a real pleasure to handle(CC model again). I doubt many makers would be willing to rip off that design feature.

Then. ZT knives...also here I can chime in. Model 0560 i.e. Elmax steel, titanium frame (one side) and butter smooth opening.
When it came to my regular 1yr servicing inspection that I do on each of my folders I grabbed the torx keys of mine and tried to unscrew the screws. Sorry to say that they were glued, so I had to have the frame clamped and with some lubrificant and a lot of efforts I eventually managed to get things done. At which point I discovered quite an interesting fact: all of the torx sockets have quit, were no longer usable. Nice isn't it?

I assume "quit" means you stripped the heads? I did that quite a bit myself before some more careful reading on these forums reveals that all of their screws are held on with blue loctite. A soldering iron held to the screws prior to removal stopped that from happening again.

So I wrote to ZT and they said they would have shipped the screw set in a few days. It was March the 3rd of current year. No screws yet, but I went it my own way and bought some #6 - 32 UNC Socket Button Headed Screws, Allen Bolts 1936-60 UNC Thread - Grade 12.9, Self Coloured (due to HT).

Might be an issue with you being overseas. I got my replacement parts from them(including liners for a ZT 0551) quick and free of charge.

So, original screws, including pivot screw that I'm replacing as well, were not HTd and were VERY mild, which I could accept in a 30EUR knife but not here.

Honestly, I don't know anyone else who specifically uses hardened screws in a knife. It's not practical in a mass production standpoint, and those screws typically aren't manufactured with knives in mind.

 

[Noctis3880]

Like it or not QTRMSTR uses a fully hardened stainless steel frame/screws/pivot screw asset and this means A LOT MORE mechanical resistance.
This at a fraction of the price of ZT/Strider.

Assuming for a moment that's true, it either makes their country of origin suspect, or they're using illegal immigrant labor. Assuming it's true of course. I mean, maybe someone can request spare parts from them and either test the hardness with a Rockwell diamond penetrator or a file:thumbup:.

Putting aside the added costs of properly hardened contact points, unless the screws are also only hardened at certain points, a hardened screw would also be more brittle and prone to breaking under strain/shock(say, if you stab something solid, or drop your knife). That also holds true if only the head is hardened, because it could break off from the screw body unless we're talking about case hardening or some kind of hard coating.

What about blade performance of my own QTRMSTR #6 against my own ZT 0560 ?
Admittedly I'd both HRC tested. 61.2 and 59.8 respectively. Elmax should be HTd at 61+ to deliver its own, so all I can say is that edge holding is on par, with slightly more stain resistance to ZT 0560 credit.

Would be interesting if it's true, given the lower carbide volume of BD-4P.

Bottom line: titanium frames on steel blades (R.I.L. locking system) are not my own preferite ticket as far as reliability and long term even wear resistance are concerned.

How long is long term? None of my framelocks ever wore down to the point where it contacted the opposite scale, save for a ZT 0301 that came like that out of the box(which was promptly sent back and adjusted, and now locks up at 50% and hasn't moved a millimeter since).

 

[Noctis3880]

I'm new to knives and all, and I don't quite understand why so many knives use titanium lock frames. Stainless steel is significantly stronger as a frame or linerlock, and it's cheaper. Maybe there's not much difference?

I've actually never seen a steel framelock on a full sized knife. Maybe on something like a Kershaw Shallot where it's small and relatively thin, but not on something the size and thickness of a ZT 0560. I assume weight is the biggest consideration there, as it would be like carrying around a 12 oz folding knife, at which point we might as well just call it a sharpened brick:thumbup:.

 

[daberti]

Looks like a prybar, but I wouldn't say it's "born to be used as a prybar" unless it's 2 feet long where you can get some leverage on it with two hands.

Agreed, I meant "As far a a folder can accomplish with prying"

Agreed that the handles look like they would shred your hands, to say nothing of actually using one. Thus why I placed specific emphasis on the CC versions, which again seem to sell out the fastest.

They improved, yet they missed once again the whole picture: hardening or carbidizing the locking face of a titanium made R.I.L. frame is just a workaround. Putting an hardened and removable/replaceble steel insert is the solution (Lionsteel SR1, Rockstead).

As far as full customs, I think that'll largely depend on materials and the maker. I've yet to have one made that is 100% custom designed as opposed to pre-made designs like Andrew Demko's AD-10(for reference, mine costs $800 with M390 steel and Desert Ironwood inlays). I'd expect such customs to have an extra premium tacked on for that effort. As well, I again made specific mention to the handle design, which looks like a real pleasure to handle(CC model again). I doubt many makers would be willing to rip off that design feature.

Yes, it depends upon materials, yet on my mind a Custom Knife Maker is one who, after having bought materials, does it the whole manifacturing process in-house.
You outsource HT? Not a custom maker. Etc. etc.

I purchased four of Elliot Williamson four customs.
http://www.ferrumforge.com
Limiting to the two folders these were made out of M390 hardened and tempered at >62HRC, secondary hardening range tempered. 450EUR each, two years ago, shipped overseas, customs and duties included. Titanium frame.

Slightly less than two years ago I purchased this knife from Neels Roos
http://www.sablade.com/forums/showthread.php?1385-M390-Tactical-and-heat-treating-experiment
I paid it 450EUR shipping and customs/duties included.

Now, why should I have spent 650EUR all included to purchase a blister magic Strider?

I assume "quit" means you stripped the heads? I did that quite a bit myself before some more careful reading on these forums reveals that all of their screws are held on with blue loctite. A soldering iron held to the screws prior to removal stopped that from happening again.

You're right about the heads, but I have a very close relationship with Blue and Red Loctite and I can witness that it was normal glue. I used a heat gun, but it didn't sort the things out.

Might be an issue with you being overseas. I got my replacement parts from them(including liners for a ZT 0551) quick and free of charge.

Might be, but doing the proper things first, would have avoided this then.

Honestly, I don't know anyone else who specifically uses hardened screws in a knife. It's not practical in a mass production standpoint, and those screws typically aren't manufactured with knives in mind.

It is practical mate.
The screws I bought cost today for a pack of 50 screws 2.08£ VAT included + shipping
Shipping screw set to me overseas would certainly trespass this amount.
Clever engineering means ALWAYS saving, in the long term perspective

I'll answer to your other post later

 

[daberti]

I've actually never seen a steel framelock on a full sized knife. Maybe on something like a Kershaw Shallot where it's small and relatively thin, but not on something the size and thickness of a ZT 0560. I assume weight is the biggest consideration there, as it would be like carrying around a 12 oz folding knife, at which point we might as well just call it a sharpened brick:thumbup:.

Noctis, if you compare the ultimate machanical strength of lets say an AISI416 steel against Grade 5 Titanium alloy, you could easily trim down a steel made frame to the point of having roughly the same weight and strength.
The point in using Gr.5 Ti alloy is in having ultimate featherlight weight. The Spyderco Air is a very good example, as liners are made of Ti, but liner-lock out of steel (for ultimate mechanical resistance and durability).

 

[daberti]

Assuming for a moment that's true, it either makes their country of origin suspect, or they're using illegal immigrant labor. Assuming it's true of course. I mean, maybe someone can request spare parts from them and either test the hardness with a Rockwell diamond penetrator or a file:thumbup:.

Noctis, either they (ZT) used 3xx AISI grade stainless steel screws or 4xx. 3xx is not hardenable and is not magnetic. 4xx is hardenable in the great majority of cases (at least Martensitic SS in the 4xx series as 416, 420 etc.) and IS MAGNETIC as hardened. So, if you get a stainless steel screw just grab a magnet and you'll know instantly

Be careful when you are claiming "...it either makes their country of origin suspect, or they're using illegal immigrant labor". You could be easily taken to a Court
Just a HUMBLE thought mate
Actually working with steel parts is way less onerous than with Ti. It is all that simple.

Putting aside the added costs of properly hardened contact points, unless the screws are also only hardened at certain points, a hardened screw would also be more brittle and prone to breaking under strain/shock(say, if you stab something solid, or drop your knife). That also holds true if only the head is hardened, because it could break off from the screw body unless we're talking about case hardening or some kind of hard coating.

Cost has been clearly shown in my previous post.
It looks like you're missing quite a bit of metallurgy background, not your fault though The whole screws are hardened mate, as the whole of frame. Steel can be worked easier and costs less than Ti. Hardening properly a steel does NOT automatically mean that it is weaker. In fact you can bring Elmax to 63HRC and have it having the same toughness of CPM-M4 at same hardness. The latter not being stainless, notably!!!!

Would be interesting if it's true, given the lower carbide volume of BD-4P.

Ok mate. When Elmax it is HTd properly (which none of production knives I've tested in flesh so far has yet demonstrated to me) it will have better toughness and greater carbide content than BD-4P. Elmax is also a 3rd Gen. PM steel, so more inclusion free and with a finer grain. I'm in love with it. It will also score a better normal stain resistance, but a worse one in heavily chlorinated environments (sea, seashore, Everglades, cutting seafood...) because BD-4P will take advantage of greater Moly content, which delivers more PIT resistance.
Yet, what is it the point in having a <60HRC Elmax blade, clearly underhardened with undecent screws and paying it so much?

How long is long term? None of my framelocks ever wore down to the point where it contacted the opposite scale, save for a ZT 0301 that came like that out of the box(which was promptly sent back and adjusted, and now locks up at 50% and hasn't moved a millimeter since).

Long term is doing trekking in the Alps also in wintertime as in Tuscany in Summertime, deploying the folder for preparing tinder, precision cutting tasks and so on.
It does not take the locking face to travel all the way to the other side to make (frame)locking unreliable and Dangerous
My long term has been two years.

 

[jac_solar]

I've actually never seen a steel framelock on a full sized knife. Maybe on something like a Kershaw Shallot where it's small and relatively thin, but not on something the size and thickness of a ZT 0560. I assume weight is the biggest consideration there, as it would be like carrying around a 12 oz folding knife, at which point we might as well just call it a sharpened brick:thumbup:.

Schrade has a "full size" folder series with Stainless Steel:

Blade Length: 3.7" (9.3 cm)
Blade Steel: 9Cr18MoV High Carbon Stainless Steel
Overall Length: 8.6" (21.8 cm)
Handle Material: Titanium Coated Textured Stainless Steel
Weight: 10.6 oz.

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SCH302/Schrade-SCH302-Tanto-Frame-Lock-Folder-Plain-Edge

Blade Length: 3.7" (9.3 cm)
Blade Steel: 9Cr18MoV High Carbon Stainless Steel
Overall Length: 8.5" (21.6 cm)
Handle Material: Titanium Coated Grooved Stainless Steel
Weight: 9.7 oz.

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/SCH304/Schrade-SCH304-Drop-Point-Frame-Lock-Folder-Plain-Edge

They make a bunch of different versions. They offer them with these blade sizes: 3.7", 3.5" and 2.6", and in Tanto and Drop Point configurations.

I do wonder how these folders would hold up to Zero Tolerances and the likes? Not in edge retention, of course.

 

[dkb45]

I'm new to knives and all, and I don't quite understand why so many knives use titanium lock frames. Stainless steel is significantly stronger as a frame or linerlock, and it's cheaper. Maybe there's not much difference?

Titanium is whole lot (I think like 40%) lighter, is practically corrosion proof, and I believe has a better tensile strength and toughness.

I only have had a few steel frame locks, but titanium makes the knife feel less brick like.

 

[daberti]

Titanium is whole lot (I think like 40%) lighter, is practically corrosion proof, and I believe has a better tensile strength and toughness.

I only have had a few steel frame locks, but titanium makes the knife feel less brick like.

Please take the time to read my post #36 in this thread.
Ti it is NOT stronger than steel. I mentioned 410, but also 416 is in the number, see below.
Do you really care to have a rustproof handle when the blade will have been gone corroded badly pretty much sooner?
Anyway please read here:
Gr. 5 Ti

and here
AISI 416
Notably grades such as 416 are totally unsuitable for marine or other chloride exposure. So I hope 410 has been used for the frames of QTRMSTR knives.

About Ti alloys and corrosion, I would hotly recommend this in depth publication
Read particularly at page 11 "The handling of Ti objects with steel tools can lead to a form of galvanic corrosion referred to as “smeared-iron”
corrosion. Iron metallic particles preferentially corrode, forming acidic microenvironments in
aerobic conditions and promoting localised breakdown of the passive film (of titanium alloys)."
So we have knife blades and screws made out of steel...draw your own conclusions.

As a less professional but more understandable reading read this

So, making knives' frames, with a frame lock asset, using Ti, given the better mechanical resistance of SS grades like 410 (and 416 when its caveats are not called in) bring about:
1)Higher raw material costs
2)Higher working costs
3)Far less wear resistance: steel blade against Ti will sooner or later wear it out Ti, capable of causing unreliable locking
4)Better corrosion resistance with some caveats the major being contact with steel parts: anyway the blade will rust sooner so where is it the fuss in a production knife?
5)Lower specific weight: having steels above more mechanical resistance per same section, this can somehow overridden by proper thickness design

 

[v8r]

I handled a QTR-6 yesterday at a gunshow. I have to admit it was a impressive knife. Normally I don't care for the tacticool knives much, but the finish and build quality was impressive. I actually think it was built better than any of the Striders that I have seen. Normally I am a huge Spyderco fan, and typically that is all I look at, but this knife was really cool. It was the Texas Tea edition.

 

[payton206]

Was that a Mr Roper tanto? I love mine as an EDC especially after its broken in.

 

[flatface77]

There seems to be a likelyhood of these being manufactured elsewhere, probably in China. If so, this is one of the better examples of what they are now able to do with higher priced knives. A few bigger names use Chinese manufacturers for their budget lines but in a few years I bet you'll see this kind of quality work competing at it's proper price level as a Chinese product.

I don't care for the dishonest marketing but it sounds like they got their contractor to give them the quality they wanted. Jared's crazy designs are getting a better treatment now than Mantis seems to have been capable of. All he needs now is a model that'll catch on with the general knife crowd. Sounds like the quality is there.

How is the steel performing on these?

 

[dkb45]

There seems to be a likelyhood of these being manufactured elsewhere, probably in China. If so, this is one of the better examples of what they are now able to do with higher priced knives. A few bigger names use Chinese manufacturers for their budget lines but in a few years I bet you'll see this kind of quality work competing at it's proper price level as a Chinese product.

I don't care for the dishonest marketing but it sounds like they got their contractor to give them the quality they wanted. Jared's crazy designs are getting a better treatment now than Mantis seems to have been capable of. All he needs now is a model that'll catch on with the general knife crowd. Sounds like the quality is there.

How is the steel performing on these?

I haven't had CPM-154 from anybody else, but I have used 154cm extensively and it is improved from 154cm in nearly every way. Takes a keener edge, sharpens up a little easier, and edge retention was a little better. I can't get it examined in a spectrometer or anything, but the blade seems pretty legit to me.

 

[erdoc8921]

I will agree with DKB45. I have recently gotten a QTR-5tt. Its a good knife, and at this time, is the sharpest knife I own, after I sharpened it with my EP. I did dis-assemble it and polish the washers as well. I tried to get it to run using only one set of washers but I could not get the blade to center, which is unfortunate because one set of washers made the knife action very smooth. I also lubricated it with fluorinated grease. For what they are charging its a pretty good deal, and I would probably buy another one. I looked into having the steel analyzed, but it costs around $200 for chem analysis at a local place here in Houston, so I will probably not do that. I can say that the blade steel behaves very similarly to my BM mini griptilian in 154CM. At this time, I am pleased by the knife and really pleased by the blade steel performance.