Queen and GEC

Sometimes when I look at Queen Knives they are in two different categories.

What's the difference between Queen City and Queen Cutlery?

I'm guessing they are the same, but if that's the case I don't understand why online dealers have two separate links to each with sub categories in each of those.
 
For the OP and other new collectors, I would just use the brand as one of the many indicators of who made what. It is actually not a very good indicator, especially for old knives--there are lots of fakes of old knives. You will benefit much more from watching the factory tours and learning about the manufacturing instead of paying much attention to the marketing. There are tours for GEC, Queen and Case (as well as many others) on Youtube. Understanding how the knives are made will help you "read the knife". The knife tells the true story. Understanding how the knives are made will also help you understand quality.

I will take your advice, thank you. I will see if I can find some youtube videos for Queen factory tours.

I watched video a couple years ago and it was more of a look at our place video versus information related to the difference in the knives they offer... but will look into it again.
 
cbr1000, I'll try to offer as much help as I can. Jake has the right of it, though. It's mostly marketing.

Queen is a very old company, and so lines have come and gone and come back again. The Heritage Series was an attempt to remake long gone classics using pictures out of old catalogs as a guide.

I believe Queen City is a throw back to the original name of the business. A queen city is a city that's the largest in it's state or country, but not the capital. For example, in Wisconsin Milwaukee is the largest city but Madison is the capital, so Milwaukee would be our queen city. Titusville must have been the largest city in PA at some point, because it's nickname is Queen City. Queen started out as Queen City Cutlery, but I don't know when they cut that down to just Queen. The current Queen City line uses 1095 steel, is only a couple of classic patterns, and they all share one cover material each year. So, the dealers likely separate them out because the Queen lines will come with D2 steel and a variety of covers whereas the Queen Citys are just the one cover material and 1095. The Queen City lines have some embellishments as well, which I haven't seen on the Queen line. For example, the liners on my Queen City Cattle King have a pattern stamped into them which is very nice. However, they share patterns with the Queen line, so this year I was able to pick up a Queen City 49 and Queen 49 that are identical with the exceptions of cover material and steel.

From what I've been able to tell, the Keystone line is S&M's standard line. The F&W line is their premium line. The F&W typically have a higher grade steel, like ATS-34, whereas the Keystone line uses 420HC. This is not a hard and fast rule, as many of the short runs that Queen has been putting out have used the keystone shield and use all different types of steels. I currently have a mini-trapper in my pocket that was made for their Historical Society Gathering this year that sports the keystone shield and 1095 steel. I also know that they've put out F&W knives with D2 steel. In fact, there's at least one run that I know of that had ATS-34 offered with one cover material and D2 with a different cover material and both were marked F&W.

Basically, the Queen lines are going to be a bit more confusing because the company is so old and has switched hands multiple times. Each owner brings their own marketing strategies with them, and tries to pay homage to the company's history in their own way. For the current production knives my strategy is to look at their website. If it's Queen City it's 1095 steel, satin finished, and fancy shields. The Queen line is D2, polished blades (as well as they can polish D2), and plain Queen circular shields. The Keystone line is 420HC, polished blades, and the keystone shield. The F&W line is ATS-34, polished blades, embellished bolsters, and fancy shields.

If the knife isn't on their site it's a short run and all bets are off. You have to take those on a knife by knife basis. It seems that they make the knife they want and then try to fit it into a line that most closely matches it, instead of building the knife based on the criteria of that particular line.

I agree with you that it's difficult to decipher without seeing them in person. I didn't get into Queens until I started going to local knife shows, and they have a table at every show in Wisconsin. If you prefer a simpler method of categorizing Case or GEC are safer bets. At least until you watch the videos that Jake suggested and become proficient at spotting the differences by looking at pictures. ;)
 
Some are and some aren't. For example, in the photo below, the top shield is glued and the bottom shield is pinned.
 
They made an announcement at some point this year that going forward all shields would be pinned. So, if it's a newly manufactured knife it'll be pinned for sure. For past runs, that bowed out look from Rick's picture is an indication that it's glued whereas the flat shields are pinned. I don't know that all the flat ones are pinned, but I believe all the bowed out ones were glued. Not 100%, but pretty sure.
 
I guess I got lucky with my S&M gunstock; no shield to cover up the lovely stag covers.
 
Bill Howard used to run the Queen factory. He left that job to start GEC with a business partner named Ken Daniels. After a couple of years Bill bought Ken out of GEC, and Ken subsequently bought Queen. So, the owner of GEC used to work at Queen and the owner of Queen used to own GEC.

The cutlery industry has a long history of "intermingling" between companies.
 
The cutlery industry has a long history of "intermingling" between companies.

Yep. Even the original Queen Cutlery company was originally founded by ex-employees (all skilled department heads) who were fired from Schatt & Morgan. Charles Morgan fired the employees in 1922, then filed for bankruptcy in the late 20's and sold the entire company to Queen Cutlery in 1933, and ended up working for the men he had fired.

And it was called "Queen City Cutlery Company" until 1946, when they changed it to "Queen Cutlery Company". Titusville was a thriving oil boom town (first commercial oil well in the world was dug in 1859), so that is how it got the "Queen City" title. In 1860, the Titusville population was around 200 people, and by 1866, it was over 6,000.

Sorry for the short history lesson, this is basically my home town ;)
 
They made an announcement at some point this year that going forward all shields would be pinned. So, if it's a newly manufactured knife it'll be pinned for sure. For past runs, that bowed out look from Rick's picture is an indication that it's glued whereas the flat shields are pinned. I don't know that all the flat ones are pinned, but I believe all the bowed out ones were glued. Not 100%, but pretty sure.

Cory, you said it better than I could. I assume the same thing about the shield variations but didn't want to say so because I'm not 100% sure either. Looks to be the case though and I, for one, agree with all of your comments.

In January of this year I spoke with Ryan Daniels at a knife show and he told me that all shields will be pinned from now on. Said his Dad had one fall out on him, got frustrated with it, and made the decision right then and there. I had been hoping to see or hear of some improvements from Queen and this information really made my day. An excellent step in the right direction.
 
If anyone gets tired of their old, dirty(probably has rust too!) Queen knives, you send them to me and I'll make sure they're disposed of properly. :D Just because I'm a good feller.
Thanks,Neal.
Ps-check out Queens homesite, good info as well as their dealer list, one in particular does an excellent job of dissecting the lines for sale and gives more history. Be it said tho', you can look at some older catalogs on the Queen homesite, very cool and the way I found out about one of my EDC knives.
 
Okay, so from good to best build quality..?

Queen, SM keystone, SM File & Wire, Tuna Valley?

Supposedly. I've owned multiple (Queen made) Tunas and S&Ms that have the same QC issues that beleaguered many of the "lower quality" worker Queens. From wobble, spring gaps, non flush bolsters, significant blade rub, to poorly cut nail nicks, there just isn't a knife I wouldn't buy from that entire factory without handling it first. It's disappointing, as I love their patterns, unique handle materials, D2 steel, and so forth, but after owning dozens of each of the named brands, I've only had a few that didn't need at least minor work to make them meet my (fairly minimal and not very picky) expectations.
 
Supposedly. I've owned multiple (Queen made) Tunas and S&Ms that have the same QC issues that beleaguered many of the "lower quality" worker Queens. From wobble, spring gaps, non flush bolsters, significant blade rub, to poorly cut nail nicks, there just isn't a knife I wouldn't buy from that entire factory without handling it first. It's disappointing, as I love their patterns, unique handle materials, D2 steel, and so forth, but after owning dozens of each of the named brands, I've only had a few that didn't need at least minor work to make them meet my (fairly minimal and not very picky) expectations.

I have at least 8 Queen made knives, not one of them was "disappointing" but some needed "work". None of of them were over $100 and two are ATS34. I like them all and some I love. I bought over half sight unseen over the internet. In my mind S&M File and Wire in ATS34 is the best. I like their D2 basic knives and I have a few contract knives in 1095. They have a great heat treat and fine finishes. Their stag over the years and pearl is especially good.
 
I third wills comment.
Quality is not exclusively governed by finish.
Handle materials are consistently good across the range and more than likely will influence purchases.
 
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