Queen Cutlery Company Closes

[Will Power]

And sadly the waves reach other shores: A statement of G. Homes from Trestle pine:

January 12, 2018Admin Comments, Trestle Pine KnivesQueen Cutlery, Trestle Pine KnivesGholmes2

After the announcement was official from Queen Cutlery on Wednesday regarding their cessation of operations I received a couple of emails and phone calls asking me did this affect Trestle Pine Knives and if so… now what? The short answer is I don’t know.

First, I hope they come out of this reorganization whole and can continue operations. The knife industry has changed dramatically in the last 10 years making it harder for everyone to maintain a big enough share of a shrinking market to survive. When I say ‘shrinking market’ I mean there are more and more products vying for a limited number of consumers. Queen had a unique niche manufacturing an old name representing a quality product that I hope they can focus on again.

Obviously, the fortunes of Trestle Pine Knives was/is tied to the ongoing operations of Queen Cutlery. I haven’t had any substantive conversation with anyone from Queen since the first part of October. Emails and text messages have gone unanswered or only vague replies were made. More recently, I sent in several customer knives for repair/replacement which were returned to me marked “delivery refused”. There are other personal and financial issues that make this particularly disappointing to me. In brief, I’m totally in the dark as to the future of Trestle Pine Knives. It all depends on Queens ability to recover.

I’ve been asked if I would work with another manufacturer. IF it were possible, I’d consider it. One of the problems is that the Trestle Pine’s are built using only premium blade steels which some manufacturers can’t or won’t work with. Second, not everyone is willing to work with some of the exotic woods that I’ve used with Queen. That leaves the option of following the market and building another traditional bone handled folder. Not an option for me.

It was a hope that I would continue to scale back the business this year and focus almost exclusively on the Trestle Pine Knives going forward. I had really hoped to have another knife released by now. The acceptance of the line has been steadily growing and Sven’s efforts in Germany has been great. But for now….. I don’t have a clue what’s going to happen.

Greg's outline is very telling though. When he says e-mails & texts unanswered since early Oct, repair/replacement knives sent back 'delivery refused' he was an important customer with his Trestle Pine venture. If he received this treatment, it speaks volumes for what those at the top were up to in this company, how would an individual consumer fare? Looks to me that IF Queen C can be turned around, it needs different people with a very different mindset at the helm....

 

[Will Power]

This ACSB Muskrat in D2 is single-spring, Probably about 2004 I would guess, no one could fault its construction or finish, it even came sharp

 

[Bartleby]

How long will Bear & Sons/Buck/Case/GEC/Utica remain?

I pledge to do my part by buying more knives.

An excellent idea!

This past year, I did try to support US factory knife making and purchased several Barlow knives from Utica, B&S and Queen.

Both Uticas had issues involving defective springs (practically no tension on both blades on one, nail breaker master mated with little tension for the pen blade on the other)and mis-assembled (cracked bone on one, gouged mis-ground wood on the other) handles. I am not talking hairline cracks or something that was a small cosmetic flaw. These were major defects. I hate to see them produce to such a low standard (a lot of my family carried Utica/Kutmaster when I was a kid). This is perhaps more annoying since Rough Rider based their now ubiquitous Barlow design heavily on that of Utica/Kutmaster.

Bear & Son did a much better job in fit and finish and the pair of Barlows in wood I bought from them have been good users, making up for some bad experiences in years past.

I really liked the Queen Workhorse Barlow the best of the bunch. I purchased four of these in delrin and found them to be very nicely executed, reminding me of the USA made Schrade Old Timers of my youth (I also really like the idea of having domed heads the blade pivot pin on a knife that will be used extra hard. The one I carry has been getting hard use and has not loosened at all). Two of the four I gave as gifts at Christmas, but if Queen does come back, I hope to get a couple more to squirrel away.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

I only own 6 Queen made pocketknives (3 pre Daniels era, and 3 Daniels era). Based solely on this small sampling, I would have to say that my pre Daniels era are the better made specimens in their overall fit & finish. I would have expected the opposite to have been true, since I thought, for some reason, that the Daniels family purchase of Queen Cutlery would mean a new better start and revival of the company's former reputation. The entire Queen situation is very disappointing to me. I hate to think that they may permanently be gone. And if gone from USA manufacturing, would hate the possibility that the name winds up being sold to folks that end up having them made overseas. It disappoints me to think that, instead of the Daniels purchase being a great way for the company to rebound, that somehow it may have actually caused the company to die even earlier than expected.
Not trying to point any fingers, just my own disappointing feelings leading to all the wondering going on in my head.
I think in the end, even though there may be explanations made for their current situation... The total truth will likely include many factors (traditional pocketknife demand dwindling, competition from GEC, quality control issues, and some other things already floated around in this thread). I will admit to liking my close to perfect Queen company made specimens more than my close to perfect GEC company specimens. When Queen got a knife right, it simply spoke to me more. May Queen come back better than ever (fingers crossed).

Btw, here would be a cool, though maybe unlikely scenario...
We know that Queen had it's founding by former Schatt & Morgan employees (they having started the Queen firm). Then, when Schatt & Morgan went belly up, Queen purchased the remains (keeping the S&M name alive). They even moved the Queen operation into the S&M building (which is still Queen's location to this day). Now, we also know that GEC was partially founded by a gentleman that was formally an important employee of Queen Cutlery, and is currently the owner and fully runs GEC. What a continuance of the past it would be if the GEC owner somehow manages to buy the remains of Queen, and do for it what Queen did for the Schatt & Morgan name (keeping the S&M name alive in a quality way). The icing on the cake would be that they then move into the current Queen building, which was formally the S&M building. Almost like that whole "History repeating itself" thing. In this case... Queen buying S&M, and GEC now buying both, and all very historically intertwined.

My one and only fixed blade Queen knife...

 

[DrPenguin]

I am sad to see this happen but was glad to see others feeling the same. To me Queen City was the precursor to GEC. I will always treasure my 1095s that they used to test out the concept that eventually became Great Eastern.

Their second cut stag D2 series dyed red is probably the centerpiece of my collection. Absolutely gorgeous.

Ah well. Hope they regroup and make a big comeback.

Will

 

[screened porch]

I won't share my customer service story. I will see about getting somebody to replace the broken springs on my only new-boughten Queen. It's a beautiful knife, except for the self-breaking springs.

Queen had problems, but I think the main problem, as mentioned above, is that nobody carries a knife anymore. How long can Case last? I can't see GEC outliving us eccentric codgers by much. Buck and Utica may last longer because they have offshore producers and modern designs.

I wonder what Rough Riders will cost when all our domestic cutlers are gone.

 

[Railsplitter]

Btw, here would be a cool, though maybe unlikely scenario...
We know that Queen had it's founding by former Schatt & Morgan employees (they having started the Queen firm). Then, when Schatt & Morgan went belly up, Queen purchased the remains (keeping the S&M name alive). They even moved the Queen operation into the S&M building (which is still Queen's location to this day). Now, we also know that GEC was partially founded by a gentleman that was formally an important employee of Queen Cutlery, and is currently the owner and fully runs GEC. What a continuance of the past it would be if the GEC owner somehow manages to buy the remains of Queen, and do for it what Queen did for the Schatt & Morgan name (keeping the S&M name alive in a quality way). The icing on the cake would be that they then move into the current Queen building, which was formally the S&M building. Almost like that whole "History repeating itself" thing. In this case... Queen buying S&M, and GEC now buying both, and all very historically intertwined.

This would be awesome!

 

[cilohaefink]

Interesting what pocketknife Jimmy said....

In fact, even before the announcement of the Daniels family buying Queen, I speculated in my own mind that the most logical course of events would be for GEC (which was then starting to enjoy great success) to purchase Queen (which even at that time was in the doldrums). Two small companies, both in the same small town, both in essentially the same market segment.

Maybe that could now happen. Again, pure speculation about what MIGHT be the best path forward.

GEC clearly has the proper management and QC, and they have a solid customer base, with a great online marketing presence. Several private label customers.

Queen has some skilled employees, equipment. Tooling for many unique patterns, several important cutlery trademarks. Queen has the experience of working with a wide variety of modern blade steels. At least one private label customer (Moore Maker).

The advantages would be, rather than two similar companies vying for limited skilled employees and a share of a limited market, all would be under one roof, including shared equipment and marketing resources.

Whether it would make more sense for a combined company to move into the old Schatt/Queen factory or into the newer GEC facility, I have no idea. Did the limitations of working in a very old building affect Queen's ability to compete?

Success stories can still happen in the cutlery industry. Here in Massachusetts, we had Lamson & Goodnow, a manufacturer of kitchen knives and tools. Depending on who you ask, they were either the oldest or the second oldest cutlery manufacturer in the US. Founded 1837.

They offered a nice line of kitchen cutlery (all of my kitchen knives are Lamson & Goodnow forged knives made within the past 20 years). They went through several ownership changes in recent years, and eventually went into bankruptcy a few years ago. One of their big issues, per the plant managers, was that the very old brick "mill" style buildings that housed the factory caused significant production bottlenecks. This was even though they did have modern manufacturing equipment.

Anyway, they emerged from bankruptcy with a new owner, and were able to move into a new modern low-rise manufacturing plant in Westfield, MA.

The quality of the forged kitchen knives now being made by Lamson in the Westfield plant is awesome, easily a better level of fit, finish, and blade geometry, based on the examples that I have seen. And I believe that they were able to lower their prices significantly as well (forged kitchen knives are NOT cheap to begin with).

And this success story happened in a state with high labor and regulatory costs. In a market for a very basic product (kitchen cutlery) that is completely supported by the "user" market, not any "collector" market.

 

[bluecow]

scrteened porch hit the nail on the head. as a kid i didn't know of any men that didn't carry a knife in his pocket and more than a few women had a pocket knife in their purse. now vary few people carry a knife and when they do it seems to be most want a assisted opening lock blade tactacool ................ why? tactical sells. look at firearms, camping gear.......... I'm waiting fior the stealth/camo fly rod. I don't own a Queen (yet? one is in the mail?) so this is just my two cents. most all i see are S&M $80+ nice or the collector, not so much for someone that wants a traditional knife to put in his pocket. i don't see Queen competing with GEC, Northwoods, etc. I know nothing about running a knife co. so this is JMHO. Queen: make a few S&M. do your contract work. and make 4 or 5 patterns of working man knives, with D2 and plastic handles in one color. maybe a Barlow, Sodbuster,Trapper, and Stockman. and do em right. Advertise where none knife people will see it. but what the heck do i know

 

[Bartleby]

GEC clearly has the proper management and QC, and they have a solid customer base, with a great online marketing presence. Several private label customers

It is a solid but fairly small customer base, I have yet to see a GEC knife in use personally, although a lot of folks where I live do carry pocket knives. No one I have encountered carries a GEC. The posts I have seen here tend to be all praise or all condemnation, based on individual examples. I have been wondering when they will have wider distribution or increased production.

 

[JTB_5]

I am all for buying more traditional knives but I don’t agree with subsidizing poor work or poor customer service. I’m not talking specifically about Queen, since I have no experience with them, but I know with students that if you accept shoddy work and disrespect then you’ll get more of it. Put your money into companies doing it well and let the others improve or find something that they can do better. Sometimes it takes falling down in order to be humbled to make changes you wouldn’t have before.

 

[Bartleby]

I am all for buying more traditional knives but I don’t agree with subsidizing poor work or poor customer service.

Agreed, I felt especially disappointed returning the defective Utica knives (especially knowing that RR consistently does a better job on their knock off than Utica now does on the pattern).

 

[Heirphoto]

While it would be nice to see them emerge from this they could well go the way of Imperial, Schrade etc... The owners still have the names, Queen, S&M, etc.... those along could be sold as Imperial was or worse they could even reopen as the new "Rough Rider" type business and outsource their manufacturing to China still using the Queen name themselves. While we all have our ideas of what we would like to see, in the end it still comes down to the Daniels family doing what they need to survive themselves.

 

[Railsplitter]

Just a guess but I don't think Ken Daniels would outsource manufacturing to China. Someone else might do it if they buy the company but I don't think that's what Ken is about.

I hope I don't get proven wrong.

 

[Pomsbz]

Greg's outline is very telling though. When he says e-mails & texts unanswered since early Oct, repair/replacement knives sent back 'delivery refused' he was an important customer with his Trestle Pine venture. If he received this treatment, it speaks volumes for what those at the top were up to in this company, how would an individual consumer fare? Looks to me that IF Queen C can be turned around, it needs different people with a very different mindset at the helm....

This was exactly my thoughts when reading that and in reference to the years of patience unanswered. Queen deserved far better, perhaps deserved a chance to survive.

 

[Rookie82]

Just a guess but I don't think Ken Daniels would outsource manufacturing to China. Someone else might do it if they buy the company but I don't think that's what Ken is about.

I hope I don't get proven wrong.

I agree. Ken didn't buy Queen in 2012 to try and get rich, he already is involved in other businesses that provide his family's income. He bought Queen to keep them from going out of business back then. I can't imagine him throwing in the towel and letting the knife name be made in China.

Also, I'm not sure about their sales in the last 20 years, but I know that in the late 70's, through the 80's and early 90's, Queen sold tons and tons of knives in Africa and the Middle East. Selling expensive collectible knives in the US was not their only bread & butter.

 

[Heirphoto]

Just a guess but I don't think Ken Daniels would outsource manufacturing to China. Someone else might do it if they buy the company but I don't think that's what Ken is about.

I hope I don't get proven wrong.

I would think not either, just mentioning possibilities that any company might consider at times like this.

 

[Bartleby]

I would think not either, just mentioning possibilities that any company might consider at times like this.

This also may not be as easily done as it once was. It seems it may be a bit different outsourcing now than it was back in the 90s as well. A known name is no longer automatically as helpful in marketing as it was back when Taylor started the Schrade line, once the New York factory closed. I am thinking particularly of the outsourced traditionals A.G. Russell carried for a short time as "Kissing Crane" branded knives that were later branded as "Klaas" and now under the "War Eagle" name.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

I can't speak for everyone but I don't think it is less common for actual working people to carry a folder in my area. It is just that many have switched to one-hand opening clip-carry types. Before that it was a trend toward the Buck 110 type pouch carry lock backs. All took a bite out of the slip-joint pocket knife market. It is really hard to find a hardware store with a Case display anymore.

 

[B.F.U]

I'm youngish (41) and own traditional pocket knives as well as modern the problem is it's 2018 I don't want dead trees, dead animal parts, or plastic on my knives. Give me an aluminum/titanium frame and bolsters, CF/Micarta/G10 covers and a stainless blade and I'll buy all day long, but everyone thinks a high end slip joint needs steel and dead stuff. If these companies want to continue they need to appeal to me and the younger and we like different stuff.

Your views are your own, and I respect your ability to have and voice them, but I think you are deeply mistaken about your core point. If you want more sustainability and less impact on the environment and its inhabitants then aluminum/titanium and CF/Micarta/G10 are absolutely the worse choice over natural materials. Many if not all of the natural materials on traditional knives are reused or recycled in the sense that the animal or plant was not killed for the knife, but for some other reason (or they weren't killed at all, but died of natural causes) and the material was harvested as a secondary use for the knife.

I am all for supporting the environment and avoiding unnecessary killing, and I do my part when I can, but I don't think that's what's driving your opinion here. I think there are probably several factors, but I think the real reason that you've given the facade of sustainability is the aversion to natural mortality.

They are (were?) located in an area deep in the economic doldrums, which makes it harder on anyone losing employment.

2016 data except as noted

Residents with income below the poverty level:
Titusville: 33.2%
Whole state: 16.8%
U.S. 12.7%

Residents with income below 50% of the poverty level (extreme or deep poverty) in 2016:
Titusville: 15.8%
Whole state: 5.7%
U.S.: 6.1% (2015 data)

I come from a small town very much like Titusville only about 30 minutes south. Things are not great in these towns and I hope the workers were not blindsided. The biggest problem outside of poverty is drugs, at least in my town, and its all too easy for a trusted medical authority to start someone on a path that leads to incarceration and hopelessness. I really hope that Queen's closing doesn't contribute to those issues.

Greg's outline is very telling though. When he says e-mails & texts unanswered since early Oct, repair/replacement knives sent back 'delivery refused' he was an important customer with his Trestle Pine venture. If he received this treatment, it speaks volumes for what those at the top were up to in this company, how would an individual consumer fare? Looks to me that IF Queen C can be turned around, it needs different people with a very different mindset at the helm....

I can imagine there was a great deal of stress, confusion, and general disarray in the months leading up to this. I'm not sure I'd take what happened in that time as indicative of their general or base character. Still, it certainly isn't great publicity in this time and service is key to rebuilding trust.


Just got the two on the left:

Absolutely two of the finest knives I have. My first and only Mother of Pearl and Ivory (other than one I bought for my brother). They're both beautiful covers. The both have great walk and talk and spring pressure. Both are fitted extremely well, no rub, good centering, no gaps. I'm really happy and impressed with them. I have to say, they are both pre-Daniels made. I'd like to try some newer ones, but we'll see.

The trapper was a gift from my dad a few years back. It came off centered with bad grinds and basically an unworkable edge. Now that I put a good edge on it it is a great working knife that I don't worry about.